Coping with Burnout as a Pediatrition and Cancer Survivor | Dr. Cora Breuner

Sue: [00:00:00] Hey, I am really excited today to get to talk to Cora Brunner. She's a pediatrician and adolescent medicine specialist at Seattle Children's and the University of Washington. She's expert in eating disorders and, uh, obesity and sports and trauma-related injuries in kids, and also, a really, um, avid prescriber of mindfulness and alternative healing traditions.

So she's done research in biofeedback and, um, some other interesting, um, strategies for the care of pediatric and adolescent patients. Um, she and I have a number of things in common. We both have a golden doodle that's seventy-five percent poodle. Uh, and we both love to dance. And I [00:01:00] hope you'll really enjoy our conversation.

She was just a total delight to talk to Dr. Bruner, thank you for coming on the podcast. It's a great pleasure to get to talk to you about how you've navigated your long and wonderful career in pediatrics and adolescent medicine, and I'm, I'm a real kindred spirit when it comes to, um, incorporation of integrative and alternative healing tradition strategies to care of kids.

So I look forward to hearing some bits of that too. 

Cora: Well, thank you so much for inviting me. It's an honor to be heard and also to get to know you better. So I'm excited. 

Sue: Thank you so much. I wonder if you'd start by telling us when you knew that you wanted to be a pediatrician. 

Cora: Wow, that is such a good question because as we were just going through some tech things, I was like thinking about that question [00:02:00] 'cause I haven't been asked that specifically, um- Oh

for a while. So the pediatrician part is different than being a doctor part, right? So d- deciding I wanted to be, go to medical school and be a doctor is one thing. But when did I decide I wanted to be a pediatrician? And that's a whole 'nother story because I wanted to be a doctor. I was pre-med in college, but I also was a marine biology major.

We'll get into that more in a bit, I think. But, um, so I did all this marine biology stuff with a professor that really took me under his wing, and I learned a lot about, um, creatures in the sea. Spent a lot of time on the water in the Chesapeake Bay and- Did a bunch of research on, on oysters and nuclear power plant ef- effluent stuff- Yeah, yeah

it was super interesting, and I realized, I don't know if I really wanna do that. So I pivoted back to being pre-med despite actually really learning a lot of me- marine biology and research. So [00:03:00] medical school became forefront to me. And so this was in college, this was in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I went to Franklin & Marshall College.

Mm-hmm. And so while I was there, I got, um, sick with something called German measles. Mm-hmm. Right. 

Sue: How about that? 

Cora: I know, 'cause they didn't have MMR yet. Um- Yeah ... just, yeah, they just broke it out, like in- introduced it, like right after I got it, and it was just- Wow ... crazy being sick with this rash and really high fever.

And this doctor was taking care of me, and he loved to sing. He had a beautiful voice, and he sang in his church choir, which was on ca- was not on campus, but it was near campus. Mm-hmm. So I... He said, "Cora, do you like to sing?" I said, "Yeah." He goes, "You wanna join my church choir? We need more altos." I'm like, "Sure."

I love 

Sue: it. So I 

Cora: joined his church choir, um, and it became really part of my spiritual life, to be honest with you. 

Sue: Mm. 

Cora: And hence my interest in holistic medicine, integrative, and [00:04:00] just spirituality at all- Yeah ... really, um, became quite, uh, readily available while I was in college. And so he was the one that talked to me about, um, going to medical school in Philadelphia, which is where I went, to Jefferson- Mm-hmm

Medical School. And he, he recommended that school because there was obviously a ton of medical schools. This was not a time when there was a lot of women in medical schools. Mm-hmm. 

Sue: It was like 

Cora: 30% of us were women, um, and 70% weren't. Wow. Yeah. It was quite an interesting time to go, 'cause I was only 22 when I started medical school.

I just went straight through. 

Sue: Right. 

Cora: Um, yeah, right? And so that was interesting. So I didn't really think about pediatrics at that point until I did my pediatrics rotation in medical school. Mm-hmm. And so that was... 'Cause I really loved internal medicine, I really loved surgery, I loved everything. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I wanted to do everything. Just bring it. I did too. I wanted to do everything. 

Sue: Uh-huh. 

Cora: Um, so and then when I did my peds rotation and I had a really, really sick kid who had diabetic ketoacidosis, really sick with really low [00:05:00] pH and just, just wow, s- sugar's off the chart, you know, and, uh, in the ICU needing a lot of support.

Um, and I was there late that day. This, this was before we were really h- hold- held accountable to how many hours we could make medical students work. So I was there from, like, 6:00 in the morning until, like, 10:00 at night or overnight, and just every other night. It was crazy. But we don't do that to medical students now at all.

But then- So I remember going home, um, at about 9:00 or 10:00 at night thinking, "Oh, this kid is... I don't think this kid's gonna make it, man. He's so sick." Six years old, you know? Um, so I came in the next morning, and he bounded down the hall right, and just put his arms out and he goes, "Hi, Dr. Collette." This was before I was married.

"Hi, Dr. Collette," like, to give me a big hug. And I was like, "What just happened?" That was like this lightning- Yeah ... bolt that was like- Yeah, absolutely ... this is it, man. Mm-hmm. This is it. Yeah. So, [00:06:00] and in no other field did I see that. I mean, I didn't see the, the change that could happen within a matter of hours.

These little creatures who were so sick c- were so resilient with, with support, and they could just bounce right back and just be a loving six-year-old child the next day. So- 

Sue: Crazy ... 

Cora: you know, that's the thing that I- Yeah ... and I know a lot about pediatrics 'cause, you know, I've been a pediatrician for a minute, right?

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: And I know that many people don't go into pediatrics as much as used to. Mm-hmm. Which I bet we're gonna be talking about sometime this hour. Yeah, yeah. Um, but, but, um, but it's interesting because for me, it was that pediatrics chose me, right? Yeah. The same way with adolescent medicine chose me. 

Sue: Mm-hmm.

Cora: It wasn't me making this decision, it was just, like, so obvious. It just, like, fell into my lap. And so, um, it did take me a little bit more time though, because, um, after I graduated medical school, I went to medical school on the Navy, ah, scholarship program. Mm-hmm. So the Navy paid for me to go to medical school.

And so instead of, ah, [00:07:00] doing my residency in a civilian track, I did my residency in the military in San Diego. So at that time, the kind of internship that was offered that most people did, which was called a, um, general medicine surgical internships was called a, um, operational year. So I did six months of internal medicine and six months of surgery.

Sue: So cool. 

Cora: And that was super cool. So that was all adult, you know, that was all adult medicine. Even though I was really leaning towards pediatrics, I still hadn't really dipped my foot into the water yet. Mm-hmm. So I did the, ah, year of, like, transitional internship, which is six months- Right ... and I'm then after that, I spent a year on a ship.

So I started my payback after my internship. So I was a general medical officer at the- Wow ... ripe age of 25. 

Sue: Wow. 

Cora: Yeah. Um, on a ship with 1,400 people, 300 of them- Holy cow ... were women. 

Sue: Wow. 

Cora: That's it. And that was quite [00:08:00] a, quite a ride for that whole year. 

Sue: I can't... A- and, and that was one year? 

Cora: Mm-hmm. Okay. So then I decided to do pediatrics, right?

So I had to do a second internship. Yes. So I went back to the same institution where I had done the first internship to do a second one. So they counted, like, two of the months- Mm-hmm ... 'cause one of the surgical months was a s- p- surgery month, and one was, um, and one of the OBGYN months kinda counted too.

So- Oh ... I only had to do 10 months. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: Yeah. It was nuts. Again, a second internship was... But I was only 27 at that point, so fine, you know, whatever. I wasn't married, didn't have ki- whatever. I s- okay, I just did another year of training, which is- N- now that I think about it, like, what? But n- but I was fine, so that's what I did, and it was just so much knowledge.

Because, you know, in the military, they didn't really have a lot of fellows. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: Um, and so a lot of, there was just the interns and residents and all the different subspecialties at the Navy hospital. [00:09:00] Um, and they didn't, and then the subspecialists, but they didn't have fellows. Right. They didn't have that then.

Right. So I, I was like- 

Sue: So that work fell, yeah. Pff. 

Cora: Each step down. Mm-hmm. Like I was, every time I, when I was in the OR, there was an appy, you know, like the, the surgeon would say, "Do you wanna do it?" I'm like, "What?" "Wait, no. You mean cut open the skin with this thing? No, I don't even know how to do that." Mm-hmm.

They're like, "Well, you can. I'll just be right here." I'm like, "Well, 

Sue: okay." 

Cora: Okay. Yeah. And that's just been my MO for everything. It's like, this is really hard. Yeah. This career is really hard, and there's some really sad stuff that we see. Mm-hmm. And there's some really hard stuff that we see and get to do, but it has never made me shy away from it.

It's just- Mm-hmm ... this is just hard. Yeah, yeah. So I have to take care of myself, actually, and I know we're gonna talk about that, too. 

Sue: Right, right. Um, that is a, a great, uh, pediatrician origin story for sure. It sounds very unique to my ears. Uh, [00:10:00] we share some of that in common. I, I knew I wanted to be a doctor when I was six years old, but I didn't know I wanted to be a pediatrician until a little over halfway through medical school, which is not exactly the ideal time to choose what kind of residency you want to go to.

But it was when I did OB, and every time that neonate was born I wanted to be over there. And if they were sick, that was even more appealing. Uh, and so that's, that's how I ended up in pediatrics kind of late. And I think a lot of people, um, know early on that that's where they're headed. Right. So, uh, fun to share.

And, 

Cora: and, and it, it's kind of interesting 'cause when they realized that I was kind of farther along- Mm-hmm ... the residents who I was sort of working for were, like, s- relieved that I had done so much other stuff- Yeah. Right ... too. That wasn't just really, you know- Yeah ... fresh off the turnip truck. I was like, "Well, I've k- Right

kind of seen this." 

Sue: Yeah, that's, [00:11:00] that's a relief to anyone who's supervising, for sure. Not fresh off the turnip truck. Um, tell me about how you first got interested in mindfulness and alternative healing strategies. 

Cora: So this, again, it is really based, again, on the military, because when I finished my residency and I was the chief resident the last year, I had a number of options.

I still had to do my payback 'cause I d- was, residency was neutral time. So I owed four years. Right. So I owed, f- for every year of medical school, I owed a year. Mm-hmm. So I did, one of the years was on the ship, um, but then three of the years had to be somewhere else, and I decided to go to Japan. So I picked pretty far away.

Um, 'cause there's a- I know. There's a lot of bases- Far away as possible ... you know, um- Yeah ... in the, in the, in, you know, continental United States and Hawaii. But I decided, no, I wanna, I wanna do something completely different. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: And whenever I tell this story, people are like, "Go, there were children in the military in Japan?"

I'm like, [00:12:00] "No, no, come on. No. Families would go to Japan and have children- Right ... and they were stationed there, and I took care of their children." Of 

Sue: course, yes. 

Cora: I know, but it's not super obvious. Like, wow. I'm like, "No, no, no." In Japan, they have a very interesting culture, um, and faith. So there's Buddhism- Hmm

which is actually more end-of-life, kind of mortality places for people. Huh. And then there's Shintoism, which is in the mountains and nature. Mm-hmm. So they're, there's this marriage of Buddhism and Shintoism in Japan, that people usually do both. Yeah, interesting. And so I became quite interested in that.

And as you recall, um, that part about, like, being in the church choir,- ... 'cause I, I've always felt spiritually grounded most of my life. Um, not that mine is any better than anyone else's, but I have felt spiritually grounded. Mm-hmm. And to see other people who are too was just- Yeah ... fascinating for me. So I learned a lot about it there.[00:13:00] 

Um- A- and my, you know, days off, I would just ride my bike all around Japan. I love to ride my bike. And so- Mm-hmm ... and I would be by myself just riding between rice paddies just outside of Tokyo, or, or just across the peninsu- coast, across Tokyo Bay. I would take a ferry by myself. And in Japan, n- and you- I learned a little Japanese too.

So I... It's not usual that people are just wandering around by themselves, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm. They're in groups. Mm-hmm. Yeah. With a flag. With a person in the front. Like, and so they would be like, come up to me and they'd be like, "Hitori desu ka?" Like, "Are you by yourself?" The leader of another group when I was kind of wandering around- Right

little towns and places and having tea and whatever. And I, I'd be like, say, I say, "Hai, sou desu." Like, and then they would be like, "W- like, why?" You know? I'm like, "Well..." 

Sue: Right. 

Cora: So but it was really fun. So many times I would get to know Japanese people 'cause they'd be like, kinda worried that I was by myself and th- [00:14:00] they want me to be- Mm-hmm

part of their group. 

Sue: Aw. 

Cora: So I'd be like- Nice ... "Sure." 

Sue: Sure. 

Cora: I don't speak that much Japanese, but I'll, I'll, I'll tag around with you guys and tag along. And so I climbed Mount Fuji that way. 

Sue: Amazing. 

Cora: I started off by myself, and so the bunch of groups that were also climbing Fuji were not okay with me climbing the mountain by myself.

And I'm like, "Okay. I'll be with you." Okay. 

Sue: Yeah. "It's 

Cora: cool." 

Sue: Interesting. 

Cora: Um, so I learned about that there. Um- Yeah ... and then- 

Sue: Kind of collectivism, like we, we generally don't do alone. 

Cora: No. Yeah. And it was very important for me to understand where they were coming from, and for them- Yeah ... to understand where I was coming from.

Because many of the kids I took care of on the base, their, one of the parents was obviously in the military, and the other parent W- p- predominantly they were women, were married to the military. Mm-hmm. And they were Japanese. And so- Oh ... there was this very interesting bicultural thing with probably, like, 50% of the patients had a, a mom [00:15:00] or a dad that was Japanese.

Yeah. And so, yeah, so that was really interesting because, um, I got to know a lot about their cultures. They would invite me into their homes, especially if their kid was sick and I was involved with a team that got them better. Mm-hmm. Then they'd come and, and they would, you know, be so appreciative of everything I'd done and invite me into their house, give me presents, and I'm like, "No, I don't need, I don't want...

You know. No, this is- Uh-huh ... I'm, I'm honored to do this." 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: And they're like, "Well, we have to give you a gift." And w- and it's kinda rude to say no to presentos in Japanese. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: Yeah. I can imagine. So you have to be like, "Okay. Fine." So I got some pretty cool stuff. I bet. I bet. I still am looking at some of it in the room right where I'm sitting right now, but it's just, it's been, it's been a while since I've been there, but I still cherish- 

Sue: I bet

Cora: um, what they taught me. 

Sue: Yeah. And did that, um, it sounds like that was fuel then for your interest in these traditions that you innately had interest in. 

Cora: Yeah. It was, and it just kept falling into my lap. So [00:16:00] when I did my last year of obligated t- t- time in the military, I was in here, in Seattle. I did my- Mm-hmm

final year in, on, in a place called Whidbey Island, which is a, there's a big Navy base at the end, the northern- Yeah ... part of Whidbey Island. Yep. Um, so I was on Whidbey Island for my last, um, year in the military. Wow. So, um, that's when I decided I wanted to do adolescent medicine. So out of the mili- so I was out of the military by then.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah. So I, um, thought a, long and hard about being an adolescent medicine doctor, which was based on my own adolescence to be honest with you. Oh. And so, um, so I had such a great rotation of adolescent medicine when I was in San Diego when I was a resident, but I actually really enjoy taking care of the 25-year-olds in the military, 18 to 20.

There, many of the military are 18 to 25 years of age, so which is kind of in the same ballpark of adolescent medicine. So- [00:17:00] I got quite interested in that. But, um, yeah, so when I got out of the military, that's when I did my res- my fellowship. 

Sue: In that early part of your career, did you have any awareness of burnout in other people?

Cora: Yes. 

Sue: Yeah, you saw some of that? 

Cora: I saw it. You know, it was quite interesting because, um, when I was started in the military, that's when they started doing mandatory random urine testing for, um, drugs. 

Sue: Oh. 

Cora: Yeah, so that was in 1982, 3. Huh. That's when it started, right then. Yeah. It was quite an interesting thing.

It was ... Nobody knew about it, and then all of a sudden it was like randomly, "You have been chosen to submit your urine." Wow. And so they had to go in- go into the bathroom, and someone had to watch you pee. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: And then you handed your cup to some person. The whole chain of command thing was very not [00:18:00] buttoned up, really, at the beginning of all of it.

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: Um, and again, you didn't have much notice. And so as you know, um, THC stays in your urine for up to 30 days- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: after, um, smoking it or eating, whatever. Right. And so all of us w- uh, were taught that this was gonna probably start that year. Yes. So everybody, if they were ever going to be doing that, completely stopped.

Mm-hmm. Because it was like if you were, if you were tested positive, you were out- 

Sue: Wow ... 

Cora: with dishonorable discharge. Wow. And so then all the money that they spent for medical school had to be paid back. And it was just, like, super not okay. Oh, yeah. Right. Not worth it, man. No. Like, what? 

Sue: Not a- 

Cora: No. Yeah. No, thank you.

Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah. So during this whole time that I was ... My, my first year, there were a number of folks that didn't think that it mattered that much. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: So, and they were still using. Right. And s- and I was ... It was [00:19:00] really an interesting time to be in the military. Nobody talks about this very much. It's really important for people to understand that the military really wanted to make sure that their, their people, all of us- Mm-hmm

uh, whether you were a doctor, nurse- or a captain of a ship or, um, someone that steered the ship or someone that flew the plane, everybody randomly got tested two or three or four times a year. Random. Wow. Like, you got, like- Wow ... 24 hours notice. And it's still that way. It's still that way now. 

Sue: It is. I did not know that.

Cora: Yeah. So there would be people that were like, "I, Cora, I think I'm gonna get kicked out of the military, and but I needed to be able to get high, um, because that's the only way I can tolerate how challenging this career is." 

Sue: Oh. 

Cora: Yeah. That's when it started. Yeah. That's when it dawned on me- Yeah ... that this is, this is a problem in my peers.

Yeah. And, um- Mm-hmm ... and so I was like, "Well, we need to find something else out for you, for you to- Yeah ... survive this career that won't jeopardize you staying in this career." 

Sue: [00:20:00] Right. 

Cora: Yeah. Or, you know, that was, like, my first, "My goodness, this is not okay-" 

Sue: Mm-hmm. Yeah ... 

Cora: um, awareness of substance use issues. 

Sue: Right.

Yeah. 

Cora: Um, and then, um, and, and the, how people self-medicate when they're getting close to burnout, it's just really quite- Yeah ... obvious to me. I see it. I, you know- Yeah ... I've seen it for so many years. 

Sue: At the time, did you think that would ever, uh, be something you would experience, burnout? Or was it a kind of a, a problem of others in your self-concept?

Cora: No. Not at that time. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: I, I saw it in, in my peers. I saw, um, people that would come in late, just, or just, or be, or leave, or stay too late. So either way. Mm-hmm. They were either, like- Yeah ... there for so many hours, and f- like, frustrated that they weren't there more hours 'cause they were missing cases.

These were the surgery- Oh ... residents. Yeah. They were like- Mm-hmm ... "I need to be in the hospital 24/7 or else I'm not gonna get enough cases." [00:21:00] 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: Like, what, what, what? Um- Yeah ... and recognizing, 'cause in the military then also, if you had a baby, you got 30 days, three zero- 

Sue: Hmm ... 

Cora: maternity leave. 

Sue: Wow 

Cora: And no paternity leave.

Yeah. So the colleague that I was at, stationed in Japan with, Maggie, I named my daughter after her. 

Sue: Oh. 

Cora: Maggie Kozel. She's at, uh, Brown, East Coast. Anyway, so sh- she had her babies while they, while there, and she got 30 days off. I'm like, "Did... What?" And this is not just- Crazy ... I mean, every, every woman in the military.

Sue: I wonder if that's still true. 

Cora: I don't think it is. I- Yeah. Uh-huh ... I think that's a good fact check to do because- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: it, it, at the time it was just like, this is so not okay. Yeah. And I just came back from a trip to, um, England to visit my son who works over there. They get, like, a year. 

Sue: Yeah. That's more likely, 

Cora: for sure

I mean, ha- right? They get six months paid, and then the second six months they can take unpaid. [00:22:00] No questions asked. Right. Like, a year. What? Yeah. So that was- Yeah, 30 days 

Sue: is- 

Cora: That, that was- ... not 

Sue: enough 

Cora: even to- ... super not okay. And it's just for, for every woman in the military, so it wasn't just the doctors. But I witnessed it because I was working with Maggie.

So, um, there were two of us pediatricians over there taking care of about, mm, 3,000 or 5,000 kids. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: This is a lot, you know? Yeah. And so we should've been three of us, but they didn't send a third one until, um, Maggie left. Yeah. And then two people replaced her. Wow. So there were three of us. But for the first year, it was just the two of us, and I, I just felt so bad.

Sue: Mm. 

Cora: So, um, I would, I know that I was probably, like, wor- doing a lot to sup- but, um, to support her 'cause I, I- Right ... didn't have kids, and I wasn't married, so I was, like- Mm-hmm ... fine. So it was quite interesting, um, time- Yeah ... to see that. Uh, it was not okay. And I was recognizing also in the men, um, getting burnt out.

S- um, so [00:23:00] they were interesting because I noticed that when women are getting burnt out, they get depressed and sad- Mm. Mm-hmm ... more tearful. Um, and men get mad. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: You know what I mean? It's just- Yeah ... not all, I don't want to gender it that much- Sure ... but it's just, I feel like people really confuse anger with depression.

Um, think, "Well, they have anger management problems, or they need to see- Mm-hmm ... a therapist." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Cora: this is not," 'cause I do a lot of work in the jails here in Seattle with taking care of teenagers- Yeah ... and the anger comes out and, but it, it's, it's just masking underlying depression- 

Sue: Yeah

Cora: um, for whatever reason. So. 

Sue: Interesting difference to notice. Was there then a time that you, um, felt like something wasn't working in your own career? It seems like that might've been a time that could've come up, since you were doing some extra heavy lifting trying to support a colleague. 

Cora: Yeah. Um, you know what really helped me was, was interesting, was I was really good [00:24:00] friends with the nurses.

Yeah. Because they were holistically much more aware of what was going on with everybody- Mm-hmm ... 'cause of- Mm-hmm ... my sister was a nurse. Um, and so I spent a lot of time with the nurses. So when the, the shifts would be from 7:00 to 4:00, that's how the military works, they start at 7 o'clock in the morning and they end at 4:00 PM.

I think it's still- Mm-hmm ... that way now. And so we would all be t- there together all day, and so I didn't have anyone to kinda go home to. Mm-hmm. Um, so I would just hang out with the nurses. 

Sue: Nice. 

Cora: And that just has been pretty important for me, to be- Mm-hmm ... honest with you, because, um- I, I feel very strongly about that.

I, I could not function without the support of the nursing and the nurse practitioners, the physician assistants, the other healthcare providers that I work with 

Sue: Yeah 

Cora: that, uh, were a, a way to blow off steam and to just, um, enjoy and laugh and have fun. 'Cause- Right ... uh, if the, if you are [00:25:00] burnt out or getting close to burnt out, you can't find joy in your work, then there's so- we have to change something- Yeah

because that's really what's important. 

Sue: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, did you ever have an experience of your own that you felt was burnout for you? 

Cora: Yeah, I definitely did. After, um, I had my third child. So, um, I did my f- um, fellowship in adolescent medicine, and I had my first chi- child when I was a fellow.

Mm-hmm. Um, and that was pretty, pretty amazing and wonderful, and I had no- Mm ... concept that you could love somebody s- so much- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Cora: as your ch- your child. I'm like- Yeah ... "Wait, what?" I have never... I had not... I've s- heard it, but I didn't- Mm-hmm ... believe it or whatever. But as soon as- Right ... he, he was delivered, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I am totally in love with this human being."

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: How'd that happen? What's that? It was just- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Cora: [00:26:00] ding, you know? Amazing. And so, and then I had Maggie, my second child, same thing. And then my third child, his name is Jupiter. Um, and so that was kind of- Uh, uh, very... It was a lot going on for me, 'cause I was- Mm-hmm ... getting my master's in public health. Uh, so I was going to school and trying to, like, take care of these three kids.

Um, and not to go too far into the weeds on this, but our marriage imploded. Oh. It imploded. Yeah. And, um, there was, like, nothing I could do about it. Nothing. Mm. And so I had a, um, five, seven, and nine-year-old. Wow. Three kids. Five, seven, and nine when this all came down. Mm. And, um, uh, that, that was as close as I ever came to just, like, like, "I, I can't do this.

I just- Mm-hmm ... I can't do this. I cannot- Yeah ... keep my family going, um, and my career going, and me going." 

Sue: Right. 

Cora: Um, because the person who I loved and had children with left. [00:27:00] Yeah. And so that was, that was pretty tough. And- Sounds terrible ... I, it was, it was just... Um, but thanks, thank goodness for my faith. I mean, I'm, like- Mm

very involved in my church still. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: The same church. Yeah. Um- Same church ... same church. 35- Nice ... years. I sing, I still sing in the church choir. Um- Excellent ... heaven would just, like, completely, um, took care of me. Mm. And by then, um, I'd already started working really closely on mindfulness. Mm-hmm. So I had done a retreat with, um, in M- Minneapolis.

Yeah. A 10-day mindfulness retreat with, um, Jim Gordon, who does- Oh ... mindfulness. Yeah. 

Sue: Right. 

Cora: That was ridiculously cool. So I was in a hotel room, you know, and we would have two hours of silent meditation every single day. Mm. And I don't know if you could guess this about me, Sue, but I talk a lot. Right, it's great- So that's a visual hazard

it's great to then- So for me to- ... have 

Sue: a chance to be silent and- 

Cora: Oh, [00:28:00] my 

Sue: God ... figure out if we can even do 

Cora: it. It was the hardest thing I'd ever- Yeah, no doubt ... I would weep. I would weep- Oh ... because I couldn't talk for two straight hours every single day. And the people that weren't talkative, they were in heaven.

Sue: Right. 

Cora: They were like, "This is okay. How hard can it be?" I'm like- ... "How hard? I can't be s- I can't sit up for five minutes. Six- 120 minutes silent?" 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: Mm-mm. 

Sue: Yeah, no doubt. 

Cora: No thank you. But, um, by the end of the week, I got pretty good at it. I got pretty good at it. Mm. And so now, my m- w- um, meditations happen when I'm walking my dog, um, because I just have so much- joy.

And the, just the walking meditations- Mm-hmm ... I listen to some of them- Beautiful ... or I just do it while he's just walking along, sniffing. Love 

Sue: it. 

Cora: Yeah, that was really cool. And the other thing that happened, um, during this week retreat in Minneapolis, I brought my violin with me because I- Mm ... was, like, bereft, sad, and [00:29:00] scared- Yeah

and worried about everything, what's gonna happen to me. But I s- picked up playing my violin. Actually, picked it up playing it as a fiddle, which is the same instrument- Yeah ... but played Irish music. Mm-hmm. So that whole week, I was, um, in this hotel in Minneapolis. There was, like, 30 of us. Um, I, we would play it every day.

So that's been- Mm ... a really, um, eh, amazing part of my chapter to prevent, um, burnout is music. 

Sue: Yeah. Fantastic that, that you thought to bring that with you, and that even while you were so stressed, that was accessible, that you could make use of that. 'Cause I think sometimes when we're that profoundly stressed, it's hard to reach for the things that even make us feel good.

Cora: I will never be able to experience joy again. This is my whole... And interesting, when I, um, was walking my other dog before, um, I got my current dog, um, this really beautiful bird just landed on top of my [00:30:00] house, a heron. Yeah. So I don't know if you see this heron necklace. Oh, lovely. So a heron landed on top of my house- 

Sue: Yeah.

Beautiful. Love 

Cora: it ... so it landed on my house, and just stared at me and my dog. And the, on the day the divorce papers went through, and I had to, like... It's kind of like DNR something, pulling the plug on the ventilator or whatever. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I had to sign these piece of paper saying, "Dissolved. Marriage over.

Bye bye." Yeah. This heron landed on my house, and I was just like, "How am I gonna..." And I went inside, looked it up, and sure enough, the heron, also known as the crane, in the Egyptian thousands of years ago, is a phoenix. 

Sue: Oh. 

Cora: I know. So- Holy cow ... out of the ashes of the phoenix, it re- Right ... re- is reborn. 

Sue: Right. 

Cora: So, so now I have a tattoo of a heron on my arm.

And so- Lovely ... yeah, my son Jupiter also has a tattoo of a heron. It's really kind of interesting in our family. But anyway- Lovely ... so the heron has been my spirit animal. So [00:31:00] that's the other thing about the mindfulness pieces that come to me, is just all of a sudden something will just come to me. 

Sue: Mm-hmm.

Cora: And, like, out of nowhere. So, um, the heron, I always seem to see it when I need to. And I know I live in the Northwest, so we have herons, like, all around us. Yeah. And I'm about five blocks from Lake Washington. 

Sue: We live about half the time in Washougal, Washington. And, um, we see, uh, great blue herons all the time, but I've never had one land on my house.

Cora: No, me either. And I 

Sue: live- I've never had one regard me- Yeah ... 

Cora: kind of look at me. Just look at me. I know, that's what I mean. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: And so whenever I- It's pretty cool ... tell this story, people... Now, and then they see it. I've all these pictures on my phone. People send me pictures of random herons- 

Sue: I bet ... 

Cora: that they find, and they go, "Look what I saw today."

And I'm- that's- I'm so grateful because they're an interesting bird, you know? They are pretty carnivorous. Have you ever- They're amazing ... seen them eat a snake? 

Sue: So we have the pleasure of living on the Washougal River when we're there. And during the flood season, [00:32:00] um, which is m- much of winter, um, we have a side crick that goes along our house and pours into the Washougal.

And we have a resident great blue heron who every single day stands at the side creek, and he is just watching. He'll be there for hours, and then he will pick up a salmon, a salmon this big, every single day, and he will put it on the ground, stab it with his beak, get it oriented the right way. It only can go down one way, so headfirst, and then you see this giant fish go down his skinny little neck.

And he eats this every single day for weeks, and we get to see it. And o- occasionally, we'll see a bald eagle come and steal his fish. But they're amazing. Yes. Just the most wonderful fish to watch. 

Cora: They're 

Sue: amazing. They're amazing. Um- Wonderful. But I've never had one on my house. So you had a, you had a m- a momentary, uh, thought that you might have [00:33:00] to leave medicine to keep the rest of life together.

Did you ever seriously plan or think, "Yeah, I gotta get out of this"? 

Cora: Really good question. I, uh, because of the fact that my ex-husband's also a physician- 

Sue: Mm ... 

Cora: um, I was able to pull back. Um, so I was really involved in taking care of homeless kids and just really over- over deployed really. Mm-hmm. So I was working in orthopedics, I was working in the jails, I was working with homeless kids, and then just doing regular adolescent medicine stuff, too.

Eating disorders, reproductive, all this stuff. Yeah. Gender care. And so I was over deployed, so I had to pull back to 60%. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: So, um, which my boss, Mark Smith, was fine with. So, um, so I did let a bunch of stuff go with his support, and my colleagues covered the clinics that I wasn't doing anymore. That was- Mm-hmm

pretty important to me. That I, I didn't... So I cont- I contemplated leaving completely, but my boss at the [00:34:00] time was like, "Well, Cora, what if we pull back some of the stuff that is pretty stressful?" Obviously, working at the jail was quite stressful. Yeah. "What if we pulled back on that and see how you do when you cut out, um, two full days a week, so you're only working three days a week?"

Yeah. So- 

Sue: Interesting to me that someone on the outside had to say, "What if?" Because it maybe hadn't occurred to you- Not 

Cora: at all ... 

Sue: that I could pull back. 

Cora: It was interesting because I, I... That's when I also realized that, um, I'm not as important as I think I am. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "What's gonna happen to all this stuff?"

It's like, well- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: someone else picked up the, the, the ball- Yeah ... and ran with it. And then- Somebody 

Sue: else showed up ... yeah. 

Cora: Yeah. And was supportive and, um, I was really, really, um, worried, but it was fine. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: And I realized, uh, if I just cut back, is that gonna be enough? And it wound up being enough- Oh, good

because I was able to fill my time that I wasn't working with more stuff, like volunteering at the school. [00:35:00] 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: That was interesting to do that, like- In the classroom, they're like hand me something, like, "Can you laminate all this?" And I'm like, "Laminate? How ... What? 

Sue: Uh." "

Cora: Can you use a three-hole punch?" "I 

Sue: can take your appendix out- 

Cora: Yeah

but you're gonna have to walk me through lamination." "I can't laminate." No. "Can you, um, help these kids with their, you know, tying their shoes every day?" I'm like- Right ... "45 kids tying their shoes?" 

Sue: Ugh. Mm-hmm. 

Cora: Why don't they just slip-ons, you know? Just call it a day. And they're like, "No, no, we can't." Close. "We, they have to learn how to tie their shoes."

I'm like, "Okay." Um- Oh, awesome ... so that was, that was fun. I, I loved the chaperone stuff. That was really fun for me. That's some... As my kids have gotten older, and I don't have grandkids yet, so- Yeah ... um, I just love being able to volunteer, um, around little kids. It's just so... 'Cause I volunteer- Yeah ... at the aquarium on Monday afternoons, so I'm, every Monday afternoon I'm at the Seattle Aquarium.

Sue: Fantastic. 

Cora: Which is like the full circle from my marine biology [00:36:00] background. 

Sue: Right. Oh, neat. 

Cora: I, I'm right there in the thick of things, at the tide pools and with a giant Pacific octopus- Yes ... learning all this stuff that I kinda remembered- Mm-hmm ... from long, decades ago, but... And I'm with a lot of really smart, much younger people than me who work there.

Yeah. Um, so it's just, it's just been pretty eye-opening for me to teach all these little kids about sea urchins- Gosh, right ... and anemones and all the little- Whoa ... tiny, tiny things that I can show them in the tide pools. Um, and their parents, 'cause their parents- Yeah ... are like, "What is that?" I'm like, "Well, that's a sea cucumber."

And they're like, "What? Can we eat it?" I'm like, "No, no. But some parts of the world they do, but we, we don't really do that in the Northwest." 

Sue: Oh, yeah. I love it. Yeah. It's a great, um, uh, kind of, uh, variation on the theme of your regular gig, which is very much around educating, um, kids and parents, and, uh, just a little bit different [00:37:00] setting.

Um- 

Cora: It's just a totally different setting. And so it's just... And I have to super stay in my lane. There was, um, a kid, I guess two weeks ago, where one of the doors opened and it s- smacked him in the head. 

Sue: Right. 

Cora: And, yep, and so they had to call an ambulance to go down to the waterfront and make sure the kid was okay.

And- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: I was just standing there, and, um, my supervisor said, "Cora, I, I know, I know you know this, but you are here as a volunteer, like a docent." Right. "You are not here as a doctor." 

Sue: Yeah, yeah. 

Cora: I'm like, "I know, I know." Stay in your lane. Totally. Which was like- That's great ... like my lane was like a hula hoop, which was like a Cheerio.

It was like- 

Sue: Oh, 

Cora: yes ... stay in that lane, man. Do not- 

Sue: Wow. Do- ... go 

Cora: out there and try to offer, "What can I do?" It's like, nope. Zip it. Yep. And that was- 

Sue: S- stay here and talk about the sea cucumbers ... 

Cora: that was what I did. And so- 

Sue: That's 

Cora: awesome ... and I was like, that was the best advice. And it was given to me by, um, my supervisor, who's, like, 35, right?

She's my son's age. So I was just like, "Okay." 

Sue: I too love to volunteer in the schools. And, um- [00:38:00] Uh, on one occasion, I offered to teach mindfulness practices to kindergartners, and it turned out to be 75 kindergartners, and that was ill-advised. That was not, um, that successful, actually. 75 kinders in one room, um, yeah, it's hard to pay attention to your ears 

Cora: or- No, it's really hard

anything. 

Sue: Yeah, very. 

Cora: And, um, 'cause people all... I know Erica Sibinga really well. She's in Baltimore. 

Sue: Oh, yeah. 

Cora: Um, and she does, uh, she's written a number of papers on sch- teaching mindfulness in the schools, um, and how effective it is. But she's like, "Cora, you gotta really, you know, keep your audience. You gotta tighten it up," because there's always gonna be somebody that's like- Oh, 

Sue: yeah.

Oh, 

Cora: yeah ... um, can't sit still, and it's just, which is okay, but you gotta kinda... Um, and so yeah, I've been doing mindfulness with the residents for a long time. Yeah, yeah. And like, like 30 is about 20, [00:39:00] 20... And these are adults that are- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Cora: residents in pediatrics. It's like, if I have more than 20 or 30, that's too many.

Um, if I have five or 10, that's wonderful. Yeah. It's 

Sue: wonderful. Yeah, totally. But it's like, the more you- Yeah, I, I experienced that too. Yeah. In teaching those skills, group size matters a lot. Um, so cool that you, um, by cutting back, opened up room for these other things that are so satisfying to do that you would certainly not have had time to do.

Cora: No. 

Sue: Were there other parts that were hard to leave behind of that successful identity that you had? I mean, I know initially, hard to even imagine that it wouldn't all fall apart if you didn't show up, and then you learned that you weren't that important, which is good. 

Cora: Really important, and that was- quite, um, apparent to me with the cancer diagnosis that I had.

So in- Mm-hmm ... 20- 2017, um, I felt a lymph node under my right arm, in my right axilla. Mm-hmm. [00:40:00] And it was tender, and it was mobile, so it was like, mm- Hmm ... maybe it's reactive, but I didn't have anything that was in my neck or head or, to make- Right ... a lymph node there. And, um, my sister, Amy, the one who was a nurse, passed away from ovarian cancer- Mm

in 2012, which was, I was- Sorry to hear that ... devastated. Yeah. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: So, um, so I've been very careful. She was BRCA positive. Mm-hmm. And so I was BRCA negative at the time when I was tested, and then I was... But I still was really careful about mammograms, and everything was like, I need these things every year.

I just don't want it- Right ... 'cause I'm very much of a, um, aunt to my two nieces, and have been- Mm ... for, since 2012. Well, so s- Amy was diagnosed in 2007, so for a long time. Yeah. And so, um, that was scary. So when I had, went to get a mammogram, there's this form you have to fill out that says, "Do you have any lymph nodes?"

And up until then, I had always checked no, so I just got a screening mammogram. Mm-hmm. But I decided, you know, I, I should be [00:41:00] really obvious and really honest here. Yes, I do have a lymph node. And the, the person at the front desk said, "We can't do a screening mammogram. We have to do a diagnostic mammogram," which is much more involved.

Mm-hmm. Um, and you, and it takes, like, an hour and a half, and- 

Sue: Wow ... 

Cora: so I had to get a referral for that, so I had to go to my nurse practitioner and get a referral for the next day. I went in and had this, um, s- and they, and not only did they find one lymph node in my axilla, they found five. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: And so the radiologist, I mean, the breast radiologist, he came in, and he said, "We need to get a piece of that."

And I said, "Oh, okay, shoot. I have to, like, ca- cancel another clinic and go to a surgeon, and oh, I can't do that." Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. And he, and he, and he said, "No, we're, we're gonna do it, like, right now." right now. Um- Mm ... put the gloves on, but right then. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: Yeah, and so, and then he said, "It's probably reactive, but I'm worried that there's five of them."

And, um, there's, there was nothing in my breast, but it was just the lymph node. And so, um, it was, that was a Thursday afternoon, and [00:42:00] so I was expecting a call maybe Friday, um, on the biopsy results. Nothing Friday, and then Monday, nothing. And then I was like, "Oh dear, this is not-" Mm ... gonna go well. Mm-hmm. So then Tuesday, midday, I got this phone call from the breast imaging center from, um, Paula Halam.

She's a breast radiologist and, and a, a good friend now. Yeah. And she's like, "Cora, hi. This is Dr. Halam. Um, I have some really important news. Are you sitting down?" And I said- Mm ... "I, I, wasn't, but I can... Yes, I'm sitting down right now." And she said, "You have undifferentiated metastatic breast cancer." 

Sue: Mm. 

Cora: Un- unstaged, right, at this point, but it's- 

Sue: Yeah

Cora: metastatic. It's, it's was in your breast, and now it's in your axilla. Mm. Um, and we need an MRI now, um, this afternoon. And we need- Wow ... to start chemo within the next 24 hours. And this was Tuesday of T- October in 2017. Wow. Yeah. It was, it was terrifying. And so, um, that's when I had to call all my [00:43:00] mindfulness again.

Um, so I was getting ch- I, I had a port put in. I called it my Santorini port. So I had a port- Yeah. ... put in. Um, and so was getting chemo like a week later. It was, everything was really, really, really fast because my sister had died. Everything plus- 

Sue: Right ... 

Cora: you know, when you get to know a lot of people in town, it's like all of a sudden, all the barriers of stuff went away.

Mm-hmm. And I was like- Yeah ... so I had a PHQ-9 and a GAD-7 every time I went for chemo to fill out, and I just put- Right ... yes on every single thing, so my GAD-7 score was a 21. 

Sue: Yeah. '

Cora: Cause I said yes to everything about feeling sad, worried, um, anxious. Yeah. And then on the PHQ-9, I scored thr- yes on all three of those, so it was 27.

Right. So both of them were, like, off the chart. So- Oh, man ... halfway through the infusion, I had this knock on the door. My son was with me. This gal came, her name was, um, uh, Phoebe. She was a social worker for the oncology group, and she said, "Hi. [00:44:00] This is Phoebe. I'm the social worker with the social work team here at this hospital."

I'm like, "Come on in." My, and my son was like, "Mom, why do we need a social worker? What's going on?" I'm like, "Oh, no, no." 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: I filled the form out to make sure someone was gonna come to the door. Yeah. Because, yeah, 'cause I, I, uh-uh, I'm not doing this without- Mm ... her. Um- Mm-hmm ... or someone. Um, so she said, "What can I do?"

I said, "I need a therapist now. Um, and I need a c- uh, someone who's, like, can deal with me, 'cause I'm a lot. And, um, I'm terrified. And, uh- Yeah ... I, I'm just scared." And I, I, I, I knew, I, I know I need chemo and I need surgery and radiation. I had all three. Um- And, um, but I, I need a therapist that can deal with Cora Brunner you know?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so, um, she said, "I've, I've right... the right person." Her name was Jo Epping-Jordan, and she saved... I would totally attribute her, in addition to the chemo and surgery and radiation of course, with saving my life. Oh. Because she did something called acceptance [00:45:00] and commitment therapy with me.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's mindfulness and CBT. Yeah. So that was, like, bam. That was- Yeah ... like, are you accepting that you, um, have this cancer, but you're gonna try to do everything you can to get rid of it? Yes. Okay, let's go. 

Sue: Yeah. So 

Cora: sh- so we, we met- Yeah, the good stuff ... every single week for, um, a year.

Um, and then she, uh, then I finished all my treatment and, uh, then she transitioned t- back to Canada. She was Canadian, so she moved back to Canada. Oh, 

Sue: how about that? 

Cora: I know. But she, but we, we, we, we were done. Um, but- Mm-hmm ... it was, yeah, but it was, it was very, a very important type of therapy for me. 

Sue: Yeah.

Cora: Because we had to, I had to do the mindfulness thing again, really just get into the weeds with it. Like- 

Sue: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: um, and we were discussing a lot of my past, all the stuff that I've been through. The divorce, everything. Um, and, um, how mad I was and, and how, like, buttoned up about i- all that I was. And she said, "Well, that's, you needed that then, but you don't need to be that way now."

Sue: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. "

Cora: And you don't need to fix [00:46:00] everybody now," 'cause that's, like, the fix-it doctor thing. Right. It's like, I just can launch in and fix everybody, 'cause that's my MO, right? 

Sue: Mm-hmm. And 

Cora: she's like, "You, you, that serves you well when you were in training," whatever. Said, "Don't be mad at yourself for being like that.

However," comma, "it's probably not a bad idea to let that go." Yeah. Trying to fix everybody. Right. Which has been a, was really hard for me, to just- Yeah ... lose control of that. 'Cause I thought, "I'm all that and a bag of chips. I can fix anything." It's like, "Well, no." Right. No. Mm. Y- y- you can't- Some limitations ... and you don't.

Someone else can. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you needed that a, a, a, a part of your life, but you don't need that now. Let that go. Yeah. Sort of Marie Kondo that out of your closet. 

Sue: Right on. I'm sorry to hear that you went through all that. I did know that from, um, some other interview that you had given in the past, um, quite a while ago, I think.

Um, I wonder, did that [00:47:00] experience threaten to bring back those burned out feelings around work? Or were you, because of that, eager to work and not wanting to miss the chance to go back to that? What was that like? 

Cora: That was super interesting. Um, and that's again, where, um, my colleagues at work, and even my patients, um, because of course I had lost all my hair, right?

Mm-hmm. And so I was wearing wigs and hats, and when my d- hair came back in, it was all gray. I'm like, "What is it? Why is it, it's all gray?" It's like, "Well, yeah, Cora, you've been dyeing your hair for, like, 20 years." Of course you do that, okay. What, what, what, 'cause it would always just a stripe of gray. Like- ... I thought it would just be a stripe.

It's like, "And you're a doctor? Think about it." Oh, man. It's like, oh. 

Sue: Hilarious. 

Cora: I know. So anyway, I dyed it purple and blue because gray hair picks up colors really well. 

Sue: Yeah, 

Cora: I bet. So it was purple and blue for a while. Um, but one of my patients, um, was, like, mad at me 'cause I was [00:48:00] late, and she, um, and her mom were, and it was an eating disorder patient, and she was- Mm

kinda better, but not really. Um, and so I was about 20 minutes late for her appointment, so the mom and the kid said, "Dr. Bruner, you're late. We, we had to k- go, come to you because the other doctor had a baby. She's on maternity leave, and we just got you, and now you're late, and what's, what, what?" And I was like, "Okay.

Okay. I'm just gonna tell you something. I don't want pity. I don't want anything. I'm just telling you this because I need you to know that's why I've been late. I don't want any- anything, but that's the thing. I have breast cancer. I'm going through chemo. I was stuck in traffic after my infusion, and I was coming back here after getting it, so that's why I was late."

And so then the, the kid just looked at me, and the mom looked at me, and the kid just looked at me, and she said, "Dr. Bruner, I've been a real shit to you." I'm like, "Well, I know." 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: But I picked adolescent medicine, which [00:49:00] is kinda part of the package. You're right. So I, I went into this field knowing that, so that, that, that's okay.

Yeah, 

Sue: yeah. 

Cora: But then the mom said, "Well, I, I actually haven't been that kind to you either." I'm like, "Well, again, I, you, you have a sick daughter. I understand, so- Anyway, that's what's going on with me. Mm-hmm. I'm happy to have you pick a third doctor. We have a bunch of other doctors here you can go see. Yeah.

But I'm going to be going through this for the next six or eight months. So... And they both just said, "We want to stay with you." Aw. I know. 

Sue: Yeah, 

Cora: yeah. And so that was like... So they stayed with me. So the last day of my tr- And she got better. She absolutely turned it around. Wow. Awesome. She turned it around.

She got all better. So the last day of my radiation, this patient and her mom came to the clinic, off the desk, front desk, and had a big silver bucket they'd gotten from Lowe's, 'cause they'd asked me, "What's in your bucket list?" I'm like, "Well, I want to travel. I want to keep playing music. Um, I want to visit my kids wherever they wind up.

Um, I don't want [00:50:00] to work so hard." Mm-hmm. Um, and I really don't want the cancer to come back, you know? Yeah. So, um, so they put this huge bucket on the front desk and, and then they, they brought it to me in my office, and it was just like, oh my... I still have it. Nice. Yeah. It was the coolest thing. So that was the piece about, um, turning away and stopping.

I realized I don't really want to completely 100% stop because then I wouldn't have these- Mm-hmm ... beautiful experiences. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: Um, so if I can just continue to do, whittle back and pull back, um- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Cora: a- and not work my tail off and think that I'm all that. Which, again, I understand that's the way I c- I was, but d- didn't need to be that way anymore.

Mm-hmm. So that's- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: why I, I did- Yeah ... uh, that. 

Sue: Major transformation. We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with the rest of the episode.

And we're back. Um, I, I [00:51:00] have a, a follow-up question about, uh, the time when you were doing recrafting of your career, either when you had the big change in your family or when you went through your medical crisis. What was most supportive in that time? What was most grounding or made you feel most like yourself?

Obviously, mindfulness was a major player in therapy, and I just wonder what other things were supportive in that part of life. 

Cora: Well, movement. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: That's the first thing that comes through because I'm- I have always been an active gal. So- 

Sue: I can tell that- Yeah. ... from this story. Uh-huh. 

Cora: So- My sister Amy, before she died, she got really into Zumba.

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: So, and she just loved teaching me moves, and I was like, "What is that? I've never heard of it," right? Mm-hmm. And it's a super cool, uh, form of [00:52:00] exercise that's from Colombia. Um, not New York, Colombia the country. And, um- Yeah ... yeah, so and you do an hour of dancing and all these cool moves and all this stuff, and you're drenched in sweat by the end of it, and you're just having a hoot.

Amazing. Yeah. Um, and, and it's for all ages, all genders, all everything. So- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Cora: um, I've been doing it at my YMCA. 

Sue: Awesome. 

Cora: And so, and in the midst of doing it, I heard this voice, and I'm, I'm sure it was my sister, saying, "Corey, why don't you become a Zumba instructor? 'Cause you, as you, as you vintage out, it's really important to make sure that people don't think that they're too old to do it."

Mm-hmm. "So if you're teaching people how to do it that are your age or older or younger, it'll actually make it, um, more accepting, acceptable, um, and people will be more accepting of it." Mm-hmm. So I became a Zumba instructor. So I still am very involved in my YMCA core group, and I'm, I'm there [00:53:00] pretty much three or four days a week, just literally- Wow

on the way to the hospital. Like, I'd have to drive by the Y, and if so, I feel bad if I don't just pull in, um, and spend some time doing either Zumba or, um, the Peloton or, or a class. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, I just love classes because- Awesome ... they're, um, dear friends of mine. Yeah. And from all different walks.

They're not- Yeah ... most of them aren't, but some are physicians or, uh, nurse practitioners or PAs or nurses. Right. I mean, whatever. They... 'Cause I talk about this all the time. I'm not say you have to exercise four hours a day. I'm not saying that. But just to get yourself, um, out of your- Yeah ... you know, bubble and to, to, to work out and to feel yourself alive, that's been- Mm-hmm

super important to me. Um, and then just ending a class with a yoga class, 'cause they have yoga classes, too. Mm-hmm. And so my yoga teacher is very, very cool. Um, they're, they do them on Saturday mornings. Really good class I do- Yeah ... at our local Y. So that's been really important to me. And, and [00:54:00] have, was before I got sick, before any of this, but it was really important now, um, and was then and still is now that I have- Yeah

uh, to make sure that I continue being active. 

Sue: Dance feels extra special to me. Dance feels so different than sort of workout culture. Right. Um, it's just got an exuberance that draws me to. I just love it. 

Cora: Right. And there's just, some people are, like, really m- m- shake it and, like, and they're really, really good, um, and, and like to be in the front row- Mm-hmm

or the, or the... which is fine. I'm usually in the back row 'cause it's like- Me 

Sue: too ... 

Cora: or, or, or teaching. Uh-huh. So my back is my f- ... I'm facing them. Um, so it's, it's really interesting to, to see how the class works out. It's just- Yeah ... like, it's okay. Um, I really like that. Lovely. Um, and the other piece that I really like is just journaling.

I don't think I've talked about that. I've been writing- Mm-mm ... journals since I was about [00:55:00] 13, 12. 

Sue: Wow. 

Cora: Um, yeah. 

Sue: Have you saved them all? 

Cora: Yes. Wow. It's really bad. I feel really bad for my kids because I have probably, like, 75 journals. Like- 

Sue: Oh, my gosh. 

Cora: I know. And again, before my sister died, this is one of them.

I, and I put everything in it, so they wind up like this. I put receipts- Yeah ... in it, recipes, ticket stubs from going to shows. They're all- Amazing ... it's all in here. Awesome. So I can remember. And it- Yeah ... receipts from restaurants, like, "What did I have for dinner?" It's like, "Oh," on the receipt. Um- 

Sue: Hilarious.

Cora: Yeah. So Amy said to me, she goes, "Cor, you're gonna have to get rid of the s- these 'cause you don't want your kids to have to deal with that." I'm like, "Well, they could throw them out. I don't care." 

Sue: They could throw them out. How could they? I- How could they ever? They're gonna wanna see what you had for dinner.

Cora: Yes. It's just- Yeah ... it's hilarious. When I'm finished, I don't actually read them again. Um- Mm-hmm ... but, um, I did actually... The other day, I was just kinda going through them 'cause I was just trying to clean out some of the, the... There's, there in, like, three different [00:56:00] boxes in the basement and I'm trying- Right

to make it into two. So I did throw out, like, a few that were around the time of the divorce. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: And yeah, I was, I was, uh, pretty mad actually. Pissed off cookie. Um- Yeah, bet. Yeah. Um, like I could tell just the, how hard the print was writing it. Right. You could feel it on the paper. It's like- Ooh ... ugh. 

Sue: Yeah.

Cora: Yeah. 

Sue: Embossed- 

Cora: Yeah, I was mad ... with 

Sue: anger. 

Cora: Yeah, it's just- 

Sue: Yeah, those are good ones to 

Cora: move along it sounds like. These, those, I, I kinda like don't really want them to be, like, reading how pissed off I was. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. '

Cora: Cause they know. Yeah. They know, yeah. They know. Uh, I was very hard trying not to involve them in that.

I know that's, like, a mess to involve your kids in your own stuff, so. But, um- 

Sue: Yeah, 

Cora: yeah ... so that I'd like... I, so those went. Actually, I tossed- Yeah ... those out, and I felt pretty good about that. Perfect. I was like, "I don't need to hang on to that stuff. Bye-bye." 

Sue: Yeah. Tell me, um, if you could talk to yourself r- right before the hard times really [00:57:00] showed up- uh, is there something you would've wanted to say to yourself then, especially knowing that somebody listening right now might be in a very similar place?

Cora: You are so good, Sue. These, this interview is just wonderful. Um, let's see. I was just talking about this yesterday. I, I feel pretty important about this. This is very important. Mm-hmm. I think that you have to find your core group that you trust, and I have probably, uh, about 20 people that I really, really trust with everything.

You know, because sometimes people just s- well, you're not 100% sure that when you say something confidentially or important that they don't, don't talk about it or gossip about it. 

Sue: Sure. 

Cora: That, and people, inadvertently they might let it slip, and I just... So for me, um, I think what's really important is to figure out who you trust because I, I didn't, had that, [00:58:00] hadn't gotten that all buttoned up around the divorce because, um, I did before the cancer diagnosis 'cause I- it was always present to me.

Um, but the, um, the part about the divorce, I, I, I thought I trusted my husband. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: Right? So that was not, not, not a good thing. So to make sure that you fill out, I have a talk I give, it's called the Mentoring Family. Mm-hmm. And to figure out, um, who are the people, who are your mentors. It's not just- Yeah

one person. Do not, do not make it solely land on one person. Yeah. It should be a whole bunch of people, and it s- would be- Yeah ... like a bouquet of flowers. And each- Yeah ... member of the, the mentoring family is like a family member, like a mom mentor and a dad mentor- Mm-hmm ... and a- Mm-hmm ... sister mentor and a distant cousin mentor, um- Yeah

and a pet mentor. And it doesn't have to be specifically gendered, at least for, for me it wasn't. So my mom mentor- Mm-hmm ... was, um, was the head of the hospital. His [00:59:00] name was Brooder Stapleton. He was the head- Oh, I know Brooder ... of Children's Hospital for a long time. Yeah. Um, I don't know if you remember him, but he was- 

Sue: I do

Cora: uh, was... Uh, now every time I tell this story, people are like, "Brooder?" I'm like, "Yeah, Brooder was mom." He was your 

Sue: mom 

Cora: mentor. He was mom. That makes- He was the one that- ... perfect 

Sue: sense 

Cora: to me ... puts, you know, puts the Band-Aid on and wipes the tears after you skin- Mm-hmm ... your knee in the playground and gives you a hug and a chocolate chip cookie and just says it's gonna be okay.

Yeah. He's, like, that was Brooder for me. Amazing. And my dad mentor, which is the one that's like, "You got this. I, I believe in you. Keep going. Um, I know this is really hard. It's gonna get better, but you go," and that was Fred Rivara. 

Sue: Oh, yeah. 

Cora: And they both know this- Excellent ... 'cause I've given this talk so many times.

And I also have their pictures when I show the, my mentors, um, are still actually, um- Yeah ... them. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Cora: And 

Sue: they were- Community is, um, right, just a- critically important and is a big part of this [01:00:00] podcast because I think, um, I think it's really difficult just to be burned out, but then to admit that you burned out, to share that with people.

Um, and because that's so difficult, it's a really lonely experience, and I hope that by people like you being willing to be vulnerable, even when you look like a, just a beaming professional success, uh, that you can be vulnerable and say, "No, this was really grueling for me, too, and I'm willing to reveal that."

And other people can, um, take heart from that and, um, you know, think about movement and, um, community and the other things you've talked about as these really critical supportive pillars that can, um, can be so helpful. So I love that that is the, the sort of gem that distills [01:01:00] from your experience, is that you need to cultivate your people.

You need to find them and, and, uh, yeah, stay connected to them. I really wanna hear that lecture now. 

Cora: Yeah, it's, it was just pretty fun because my, my aunt mentor is actually my aunt. Um, but her, and she subsequently passed away. She was, um, her name was Maggie, too, so that's why the name Maggie- Oh, yes ... is a very common thread through my- 

Sue: Mm-hmm

Cora: so, uh, my Aunt Margaret passed away, um In 2002, so a long time ago, um, of multiple myeloma. It was a, just a bummer. She died. Mm. Um, she tried. She tried so hard, but no. So cancer has reared its, has and, um, been, um, in my family. But anyway, so but her son, um, Bill, is a radiologist in Boston. Mm-hmm. So he has followed the footsteps, so he's the distant cousin mentor- Mm-hmm

that you can talk about everything. I trust him implicitly- Mm-hmm ... um, with anything, [01:02:00] any, any, anything. I, I'll just say to him, and I know he's a vault, um- Love it ... and yeah. But we can poke fun at the other members of the family, you know, because that's the distant cousin mentor, like you- That's right ... you have the, you know, you sit at the kids' table at Thanksgiving- Mm-hmm

and you just bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. It's like that's that. I needed that. And I realize- Yeah ... if I'm struggling, I haven't reached out to my core mentoring group, I haven't reached out to them enough- 

Sue: Mm. Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: um, because I'm struggling with, with all sorts of stuff. And then it's like- Yeah ... ooh, I need to reach out to my mentorship family 'cause this is, this is not bueno at all.

Yeah. And so, so that's been a really big, big thing. And the other thing that I don't know if you know about this, because maybe you don't. Um, so in October of 2024, I was traveling to Venice with my partner, who I've been with for 15 years. Mm-hmm. So this is like a year and a half ago. Um, I had a stroke. 

Sue: I did not know that.

Cora: Yeah. That was, wow. While you were 

Sue: traveling? 

Cora: While traveling, in Venice. Mm. [01:03:00] A first world country, to be honest with you. I know we don't say that anymore, so it had a sophisticated healthcare system. Has. Yeah. And, um, but I was confused and, um, tired. And, and I wasn't like this, 'cause when I travel, I'm like bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, um, let's go see this- Mm-hmm

let's do that. And so- Yeah ... my partner thought I was just tired 'cause it w- it was a 17-hour flight, blah, blah, blah. Um, but after two days of not sh- being sure where we were, and, um- Mm ... but I didn't have slurred speech, I didn't have hemiparesis, I didn't have any of that. Yeah. We flew home. We just- Wow ... he just, we just buttoned everything up and flew back here.

And so, um, went to the emergency room as, after we landed, and had the Dopplers of my legs to see if I had clots in there, carotid ultrasound, CT scan of my head, echo of my heart, blah, blah, blah, all the blood tests for embolus stuff. Yeah. Negative, negative, negative, negative. But the only thing that was positive was my MRI.

My MRI s- showed a bunch of microemboli, um- 

Sue: [01:04:00] Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: across my cerebellum and, uh, cerebrum. Wow. And it was just like, what? 

Sue: Hmm. 

Cora: Three, I've had three horrible things happen to me? Right. Oh, my goodness. 

Sue: Wow. 

Cora: That was so scary. Um- I bet ... and, uh, but Um, while I was in Venice just sleeping all the time, this happened.

Mm-hmm. So I was sitting on this dock with my legs dangling over a, you know, dock on some lake. I don't know where I was, but I was just sitting on this dock, and this young man was sitting next to me. Didn't know who it was, just this, you know, early 20s. And he said, "Cora, um, do you know me?" And I'm like, "No.

Should I?" And he said, "I'm your Uncle Maurice," my dad's brother. I went- Wow ... "Wait, you died in the Battle of the Bulge in 1944, way, way before I was born." He goes, "Yeah, I know. You've been to my cemetery, to my gravesite twice," which I have. Um, he's in one of those, like, massive grave sites in Luxembourg where all you see- Yeah

are white crosses or [01:05:00] Stars of David- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... as far as you can see, and one of them is my Uncle Maurice, my dad's brother. And I've heard about Maurice my whole life. I've always heard from my dad, who was also over there then, it's kind of a Saving Private Ryan story thing- 

Sue: Yeah, 

Cora: right ... that he, um, he was, um- there in Paris while, um, Maurice was, was in London and then flew to, uh, Luxembourg and was at Battle of the Bulge on December 24th, 1944, and was killed instantly.

Mm. And so the, with the telegram that went to my dad's parents, which was right outside New York City in Westchester County, the telegram said he's been wounded. So they sent a telegram to my dad, who drove- ... stole an ambulance. He was 18. Stole an ambulance and drove to where the Battle of the Bulge was just a mess still, only to find out that his brother wasn't wounded, he'd been killed immediately.

So he had to turn around, send another telegram to his parents saying, "Maurice is dead." 

Sue: Oh. 

Cora: I know. I've heard this story so many times. So many times- Yeah ... in my life. 'Cause [01:06:00] Dad was like, "Cora, it should've been me 'cause Maurice was smarter," blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. The whole younger brother thing. I've just, I've heard this story- Mm-hmm

so many times. Like, Dad, you know, I, um, it ha- it happened. And- Yeah ... so, so anyway- So 

Sue: Maurice showed up on the dock. 

Cora: On the dock. So Maurice said- That's amazing ... said to me, I remember this like yesterday. I just see his face, and I can s- he said, "Cora, where I am right now is wonderful. I'm telling you, and I've been with you your whole life.

You probably didn't know this, but I've been with you your whole life. And where I am is wonderful, and it's not time for you right now. You got other stuff you gotta do." 

Sue: Hmm. 

Cora: And I was like, "W- what?" And he goes, "To be revealed. But you're not coming." Yeah. "And where I am, I'm gonna be with you the rest of your life."

Hmm. "Just telling you. But now is not the time. And when it is time, I'll be here. But now is not the time." And that was the last I saw him. I have not seen him since. Wow. 

Sue: Amazing. Gives me, gives me goosebumps. 

Cora: Yeah. It's, it's... So it ju- it was pretty scary, [01:07:00] 'cause I was just like, "Wait, what? What?" Um- Wow ... so, and again, that, that just happened, well, a year and a half ago.

Not just happened, but it, the, the- ... I feel like it was just yesterday. Um- Yeah ... because I can still see him in my mind, and I remember nothing about Venice. And apparently Venice is a pretty cool city. I've n- Yeah. That's what, 

Sue: that's what sticks. 

Cora: Whatever, don't remember it at all. 

Sue: Well, that is absolutely amazing.

Um, I, um, I'll share that my oldest brother was murdered in February of this year. And, um, it's been, it's been a really complicated grief, um, because of course there's all this criminal justice stuff going on. But I have a wonderful therapist who's Canadian, by the way. And she has, um, had me do some grief exercises, and the one that, um, I go back to over and over is collecting the people around me who [01:08:00] would show up for me.

And it's the people who are alive, but it's also my ancestors. It's my brother Bill who was killed. It's my dad, um, my mom's mom, who I was very close to growing up. But strangely, my dad's mother shows up very prominently in, in this sort of meditation. And she was quite, um... She was a very accomplished entrepreneur.

She was a civic leader in her town. I don't think she enjoyed children as much as my maternal grandmother. Um, but she is so prominent in this, and I realize that it's because that's the kind of showing up I need right now. I need somebody who you don't mess with to show up and stand behind me as we're going through this really difficult process.

So kind of an odd extension of the idea of community. Our community doesn't just have to be the people who are alive and well. You [01:09:00] know, your Uncle Maurice has been with you your whole life- Whole life ... and sat next to you to give you that 

Cora: really 

Sue: profound message. Well, and I'm so sorry for your l- su- lawsuit.

That's just- Yeah. Well, thank you. It's, um, it's something, uh, I try not to blurt out to everybody, um, because I think it makes people uncomfortable. Um, but, uh, I just felt like, um, I just felt like that was such a cool story about your uncle, and I feel very resonant with it with my, with my kind of mean grandma showing up.

Cora: Yes. It's it is... So now, interestingly, I was... Like I said, I was just visiting my son in London last week, and so that's a long flight, right? 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: So they did all this stuff and, um, went to a bunch of neurologists. And of course, because of knowing people who know people, blah, blah, blah, in Seattle, I was seen by the head of stroke neurology at Harborview- Mm-hmm

of course. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: He went through my chart, and I was also seen. It was just... Okay, I've had a [01:10:00] lot of eyes on my chart, um- Yeah ... and nobody can figure out how it happened at all. I'm like, "Well, okay. I know you're a neurologist, you're not a psychiatrist, but are you willing to say maybe it was stress-related?"

'Cause you, you never say that in neurology. Psychiatry does. Yeah. But neurology's like, "Oh, no, it's this, this, this, this. This, the..." Right? Never. Yeah. They just don't do that, even though they both deal with the brain. I mean, come on, dude. Right. Um, I know, I know. I'm just... My partner's a psychiatrist, and I'm just like, "Why, why do d- they not- Merge.

Anyway 

Sue: Right ... '

Cora: cause it, they, they're boarded in, uh, neurology and psychiatry. That's their board. 

Sue: Oh, yeah. How about that? 

Cora: Well, go figure. Anyway, so I talked to my neurologist. I'm like, "Is there any way, any way this could've been stress-related?" 'Cause I, I mean, f- I was, again, really, really busy again, 'cause I kind of- Yeah

did too much. 

Sue: Mm. 

Cora: After cancer, I sort of pulled all the stuff back in again. [01:11:00] The jail- Mm ... the thing. I was starting to do it again. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Cora: And, um, and he said, "Well, maybe." I'm like, "S- okay." Yeah. "Because can I fly again," right? This happened after a 17-hour flight. And he goes, "Well, just take-" Right ... "a baby aspirin every day."

I'm like- Yeah ... "That's it? That's all I'm supposed to do?" Yes. 

Sue: Well, we'll take that advice, right? 

Cora: Yeah, it's fine. Yeah. It's fine. Yeah. So yeah, so oh my goodness. That is, I'm so sad. This is really sad. But whatever... I, when I was flying, when I was scared, right? I was like, 'cause I was pumping my legs, walking up and down the plane, and- 

Sue: Mm-hmm

Cora: all this stuff. And I, I, I go like this. I reach my hand up in the air 'cause I wanna see if I can find Maurice. And I, I feel this hand. I know this sounds really maybe anthropomorphizing this too much, but I feel this hand. When I reach up like this, reach up- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Cora: then I feel his hand. 

Sue: I love it. '

Cora: Cause I was scared.

I mean, I was like, "I'm gonna, uh..." And, and so Jupiter, who met me, um, [01:12:00] he's like, "Mom, everything okay?" I'm like, "Everything's fine. I'm not, I don't have any of those things, any of those symptoms, nothing." Yeah. And even though it was a 17-hour flight to get there, and then coming back, I came back on Sunday, um- 

Sue: Well, I'm glad you were well for all of that.

And, um, and, uh, yeah, I just, uh, I, I thoroughly believe in, um, all those interesting little supports from the, from the other side. And, uh, even more so since my, my brother's passing. He shows up all the time. So thank you so much for sharing so openly, and taking your time to be here. And, um, I really consider it a blessing to get to hear your story.

Cora: Oh my goodness. It's just, I could talk to you for hours, obviously. But it's just- Let's ... it's just, and I feel like I've known you a long, long time. I know. Even though we just have known each other for, like, I'm looking what time, an hour and a half. 

Sue: Yeah, 

Cora: yeah. Um, more than [01:13:00] that. I mean, I feel like I've known you all my life.

Sue: Well, I really, really appreciate hearing that, and I can't wait to meet you in person, and to share your story with the community that, that, uh, gets to see it, and, um, hear the kind of impact that you'll have for others too. 

Cora: Great.

Sue: This week's story submission comes from a medical trainee sharing their thoughts on what burnout actually is, so I'll read that. Uh, "I took time out due to burnout. I know several trainees who have. It was the best decision I ever made. The thing with burnout for me is it was due to a lot of unhealthy habits and thought patterns that needed a hard reset.

Reducing hours wasn't enough for me to do that. I think some of these negative thought patterns are quite common amongst doctors, perfectionism, stress over exams and toxic environments, trying to control the uncontrollable and do everything. I took about three [01:14:00] months out with a phased return. I'm much happier and feel like I'm making progress in my life again, not just career-wise, but personal life too.

Plus, I feel like my love of medicine was saved by taking some time away." Um, yeah, totally, totally agree. Rest is essential, uh, if for no other reason than to have time to have clear thoughts occur about what your goals and preferences are in your career. Um, so yes, rest. And important too, to try to find that clarity, and that can be really difficult for people.

Um, a good therapist, a good group of friends, trusted friends could be helpful, but sometimes we need someone from the outside to make observations about what kind of change might even be possible. Sometimes we [01:15:00] need to push organizations to make new options possible or to discover new paths for ourselves when we find institutions, uh, are not capable of making the change that's needed.

Do you have a burnout story? I would love to feature it on the show. Share it with us for a chance to have it read on an upcoming episode. You can email us, hello@stillpracticingpod.com or visit our website, stillpracticingpod.com. You can also check out sudaniels.md on TikTok and Instagram or Facebook to keep up with me and the pod.

Check out our Human Content Podcast family on Instagram and TikTok @humancontentpods. Thanks to everyone who listened to the episode. Please come back and listen again. Send us a message or leave a review on your favorite podcasting app or on YouTube. Speaking of YouTube, check out our full episode videos on YouTube that will be posted [01:16:00] every other week at Still Practicing Podcast.

Thanks again for listening. I'm your host, Sue Daniels. Our executive producers are me, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Our associate producer is Sundus Hassan Nooli. Our editor and engineer is Andrew Sims, and our music is by Omer Ben-Zvi. To learn more about Still Practicing's program disclaimer and ethics policy, submission verification and licensing terms, and HIPAA release terms, you can go to stillpracticingpod.com.

And reach out to us at hello@stillpracticingpod.com with any questions, comments, or smart remarks. Still Practicing is a Human Content [01:17:00] production

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