I Almost Quit Medicine to Sell Skincare | Dr. Sarah Webber

Sue: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Still Practicing, a podcast about overcoming burnout, sheltering together, sharing stories, and celebrating healing. Today we're really fortunate to have Dr. Sara Weber on our episode. She is a practicing academic pediatrician and a physician coach, mom, and all around creative.

Uh, she's doing important work with physician wellness and has her own experience of burnout that she's generously, uh, willing to share with us. So I am very excited, and I know you'll enjoy listening to her story. Dr. Sarah Weber, holy cow. I am so excited to see you again, [00:01:00] and so pleased that you had the time to talk about your experience and the work that you do in this format.

Dr. Sara Weber: Well, thanks for asking me. 

Sue: I wanna warm you up a little bit, uh, so I, I think today I'll ask if you're, if you're a tea drinker. 

Dr. Sara Weber: I am a tea drinker, very much, yes. 

Sue: What's your tea of choice? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Well, I do drink chamomile most evenings. It's a nice little ritual that I have. In the summer, or this time of year when it gets cooler or warmer, I like a cooler drink, so like a hibiscus- Mm-hmm

um, type tea, or making kombucha, which is, you know, a tea, tea derivative. So 

Sue: yeah. And you make your own. Fabulous. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah. Fabulous. It's actually very easy. Much easier than bread. 

Sue: Excellent. We made kombucha once, and it exploded. Um, and then we had kombucha on our ceiling, so we really haven't gone back to trying that-

but I'm [00:02:00] glad that you're getting- ... your tea fix that way. Well, good. We'll, um, we'll get started. I, um, have, of course, met you once- Mm-hmm ... uh, and, um, appreciated hearing your talk at the American Academy of Pediatrics, uh, National Conference on Cultivating Joy. And we had just a little bit of conversation about your personal experience that kinda brought you to that work.

Mm-hmm. And I'm really excited to hear more about it. And I wonder, um, if you could talk a little bit about your early career, kind of- Mm ... uh, before maybe things felt difficult or challenging. 

Dr. Sara Weber: I was one of those people who was, um, I think fortunate in med school and residency to overall- appreciate the experience.

I didn't have burnout in training. Um, and I actually had a [00:03:00] baby in residency, uh, as an intern Wow ... which, you know, probably accelerated some things. But, um, and it was, that was really hard, but I, I have always loved learning, you know, and I love, um, working on a team, and those are huge parts of being a resident.

And so, uh, residency was overall a good time for me. I, uh, was asked to stay on as a chief resident and enjoyed that year, and thought a lot about several specialties actually that I might wanna do as an attending. But for me, having a baby as an intern kinda keyed me in already to the trade-offs of training and parenting.

And so- Mm ... I actually decided not to do fellowship, m- mostly because I knew I wanted to have a, you know, at least one more child and couldn't really imagine [00:04:00] doing, repeating- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: the experience of having a baby in training. Once was enough. 

Sue: Right. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah. So graduated, you know, as a pediatric resident and got hired to do, um, pediatric hospital medicine in patient service, and then half my time was spent in a pediatric sedation clinic within the context of academic medicine.

Sue: And when did it start to feel like things were uncomfortable or out of balance? 

Dr. Sara Weber: It was certainly, um, I would say like a slow lead up. Uh, I had a, my second child at the end of my chief year, so I started my new role as a faculty member with a baby and a three-year-old. Mm. And my husband was working full time.

And, um, I actually was really excited to start my career with a community partnership grant, the support of my division chief to work with, um, Latina women in the community who wanted to do community health work. And, um, essentially, my [00:05:00] role was to provide some- You know, basic knowledge about preventive medicine and like, you know, early postpartum and with infants so that they could, you know- Mm-hmm

use that sort of pediatrician perspective and meld it with their own, uh, perspective as mothers and women. That was a great opportunity, but I think the convergence of, like, a really big project while starting as a brand-new faculty member, um, and having my second kid, it, I think, just started to not function anymore.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I started to not function anymore. And actually, the, the... What's I find kind of funny about it is I- a colleague invited me to, um, one of those multi-level marketing parties. It was, like, a skincare product line, and she invited me to this party. And this woman is... I didn't really understand how these things worked.

But she's telling about how she started to sell this stuff, how she was, like, a social worker, and then she wanted more time with her kids. And so she started to do this, and now [00:06:00] everything's great, right? And I was, like, so ripe for that message. I went home and I was- told my husband, "I'm gonna quit my job and I'm gonna do this."

And he's just like- Yes ... "What is happening?" 

Sue: Yeah. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Uh-huh. So that was sort of like, "Oh, maybe I'm burned out." But I wouldn't have had those words. Like, I didn't know that. Mm-hmm. I was just like, "I want what she has." 

Sue: Yes. Uh-huh. I want multi-level marketing- ... makeup sales in my life. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yes. And I don't even wear makeup. I mean, you can tell.

Like, this is not a good choice for me. 

Sue: Yeah, desperate times call for desperate measures, for sure. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah. 

Sue: Oh, my gosh. What was, uh, that experience like for your family? I mean, obviously, that conversation was a bit of a surprise to your husband, but did he have insight that you didn't at that time? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Well, yeah.

He's like, "You just... You worked... You, you just did all this work to get here, and now you wanna be [00:07:00] done." You know, he was just kind of like, "What's going on that that's- Mm ... how you feel?" 

Sue: Yeah. 

Dr. Sara Weber: And I still actually didn't have a name for it until I attended this webinar by, like, Cap and Stance put, put on by, like, the PHM section of, of the AAP.

And, you know- Mm-hmm ... there was a slide with the burnout symptoms. And I was like, "Oh, that's what's happening here." 

Sue: Yeah. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah. 

Sue: I think that's a fairly common experience that we're deep- Right ... in it and don't recognize it, even though, you know- Mm ... we have some education around it. Um, but it- Yeah. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Right ... 

Sue: it takes something like that to be like, "Oh, wow, I see myself there."

Tell me more about, um, the toughest part of that. What, uh- Mm ... what made you really- determined that you had to make a change beyond that, you know, sort of initial fantasy of- Mm-hmm ... getting away? 

Dr. Sara Weber: You know, I think, and I don't think this is [00:08:00] uncommon, the way it showed up in, um I guess how I treated others would be the simplest term.

Like, that, um, emotional disconnection and, like, frustration that I would have with people. And, you know, just thinking like, "This isn't how I wanna treat people." Or, you know, I remember, like, getting a call in the middle of the night from a, a rehab fellow who's like, "We think our patient has strep." They needed a consult, right?

To, like, determine. But I was, like, so mad. Like- Uh-huh ... and it is a little, you know, like, okay, wait, whatever. Uh-huh. 

Sue: I mean, 

Dr. Sara Weber: But, but, and it maybe... It was probably, like, 11 o'clock at night. Probably wasn't the middle of the night. But anyways, I, the, the proportion of anger that I felt, and then I feel like the kinda rudeness that I, you know, the way that I handled it.

Like, I- Mm-hmm ... was like, "Oh, God." Like, I felt really bad about that. And it was so things like that where it's like, oh gosh, I'm really [00:09:00] not even showing up how I want to. 

Sue: Yeah. No, that, uh, uh, is really super relatable to me. And it sounds like it, it kind of, um, it wasn't a bolt out of the blue and you had an immediate realization.

It was really kind of a process of one thing on another where you're like, "Hmm, I may need to make some alterations." When you were in that part of your career, were there things that you thought were just impossible to make happen in your professional life that you have now? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah. Well, I didn't use my vacation that year until June.

Until kind of I realized what was happening and I was like, "I have all this vacation," so I started taking it. But that was one thing, was just, I think even the forethought to, like, you gotta put it on the schedule or it'll never happen. Yeah. You know? And in, 'cause in residency- Mm-hmm ... it's kind of assigned to you.

Right. Like, here's your [00:10:00] week off. It's like, oh. And I think that in general as a, especially as a new faculty member or physician, you're transitioning from people tell you where to be and what to do to the opportunity, but also the responsibility of deciding things that you haven't had to decide before.

So you really, you're the only one that's gonna put that time on the schedule to be off or whatever it is. 

Sue: Right. Yeah, they'd be happy to see you every week of the year. Right. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Oh, no. And I think with that, just, I mean, a general lack of thinking I could take time to do anything for myself. If I was gonna take a time off, it was for my family.

Um- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: you know, I don't, I don't, I don't even think I had a desire to say no, not even an inability, but I wasn't even at the point where I thought it might be interesting to say no to things. Like- 

Sue: Right ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: you know, it was just like- Um, just so different than how things are now. The idea that I might enjoy things outside of [00:11:00] medicine, and that could be a source of fuel for me.

Sue: Yeah. Yeah. What, what ended up changing first then? What did you do? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah, I mean, I just wanna, like, highlight what you said earlier about process, which is, like, for bur- me, burnout recovery has been a process, the not- Mm-hmm ... you know, it's a You have the kind of inflection points, but then, then new things come up.

Or you uncover- Mm ... oh, I'm also doing this thing, or things trigger- Yeah ... you back into old habits, right? But- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: um, I had a mentor who w- was, you know, really aware of what was happening with me, and she just was like, "Sara, I think this summer you just need to do the required things and then not do anything else."

Mm. Like, what would it be like if you just, you know, for a couple months just, like, sat in your backyard? And, you know, [00:12:00] other than, like, obviously I have to do the things that, going to clinic and the meetings I have to attend, and, um, but still, there's, in academic medicine there, and in all jobs, I think there are, there can be some flexibility, right, of how much extra effort you're putting in.

So- 

Sue: Right ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: that was, um, I think the invitation to do that was certainly a shift. And then the other thing that for me was really important at the beginning was I didn't know how to slow down and was really willing to try meditation as a way of learning how to be still. Mm-hmm. And so I took mindfulness-based stress reduct- stress reduction, um, through, which is a eight-week m- meditation course, which is- Mm-hmm

kind of intense and maybe a lot of people feel like they don't have time for. But for me, that two and a half hours a week of stillness was, it- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: required, I think, to retrain some things in me to even be able to imagine that I would do that when it's [00:13:00] not assigned for two and a half- Right ... you know?

So- Right ... that was a real game changer for me. 

Sue: And you did that during the summer of doing less? 

Dr. Sara Weber: I think I did it in the fall after, like, the summer- Mm-hmm ... when, you know, it is a little easier to do less in the summer 'cause there's so many great things to do, right, like, outside of work. Right. But that, um, I think I maybe, I think I read a couple books probably and thought, "Okay, I wanna do, I wanna do this a little more intentionally and see what happens."

Sue: Yeah. Yeah, excellent, yeah, and, uh, that's been an ongoing support. I'm really interested in your comment about process, too. Um, for me, when I started this, uh, you know, the opening tag of the podcast is about me being a pediatrician recovered from burnout, and, um, I don't always feel recovered from burnout.

Mm. Mm. I feel [00:14:00] like, um- Uh, I'm often mostly recovered, but it feels like it's right under- Yes ... the surface, and I'm aware of it, um, which was not part of my early career. So I'm, I'm interested to hear you kind of, um, indicate something similar in your experience. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah, I think it is talked about like a little bit like an on-off switch.

Are you burned out? Mm-hmm. Are you not burned out? But I think psychologically, so many things occur leading up to and in burnout, that recovery is complicated. And- Mm-hmm ... especially I think the... What I've seen and for myself, and I've seen with other people, there can be kind of this inner dynamic where a part of us fears maybe the parts of us that helped contribute to the burnout.

Not to say it was our fault- Mm-hmm ... but like the really, um, high-achieving parts, you know, the really [00:15:00] go-getter parts. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: And so w- we almost become a little more m- a f- not afraid of them, but just like, "What are you doing over there?" And then I think we also- Yeah ... can feel this more intense draw to do less actually, where it's like, "Please give me my turn.

I've been waiting." Yes. You had your time. So like, I don't know. That, that's one way I kinda see the dynamic is it's just like- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: you've kinda created this inner two-sidedness. 

Sue: Right. And that gunner, that overachiever- Mm-hmm ... doesn't go away. Mm-mm. And when you feel better, that, that wakes right back up, and it's like, "Ah."

Yeah, 

Dr. Sara Weber: like, "Yes." 

Sue: Let- "I have energy 

Dr. Sara Weber: now." 

Sue: Uh-huh. Um- Mm-hmm ... yeah, no, I, I absolutely experience that and can watch that same exact dynamic. Um, and so yeah, there should be a better word for burnout recovery [00:16:00] than recovery. I'm not sure- Mm-hmm ... what it is, but it's maybe more navigation or modulation- Mm-hmm ... or, um, something along those lines.

When you went through that process of slowing down and cultivating that, um, were there things that surprised you about yourself and your ability or lack of ability to do some of that stuff? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah, I mean, initially, it was my lack of ability to even just commit to 10 minutes of meditation. Part of that is, like, my inherent distractibility.

Mm-hmm. But also, I think discomfort with not getting everything done, you know, as if that ever- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: happens. But then what was interesting as time went on, I actually did attend a few silent retreats. Um, and then I was What was really interesting is when I was younger, I would've said I could never do that.[00:17:00] 

Like, I didn't have the capacity. And so to be like, okay, th- there is this capacity for you to, you know, be quiet for, and still for two and a half days or whatever. 

Sue: Hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: And I think that that probably was one of the first opportunities for me to start to question how I saw myself- 

Sue: Hmm ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: and where that, where those ideas came from.

Sue: Yeah. That you didn't have that capacity, and then you found you did. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Sue: Yeah. That's a, a lovely surprise, uh, thing to learn about yourself in the middle of your life. And yeah, just to have the gift of questioning all the assumptions we make and carry. Do you still do silent retreats? 

Dr. Sara Weber: So interestingly, over the last few years, I haven't.

And, uh, the way I think about it is I was, that was like the medicine that I had needed for many [00:18:00] years. And- 

Sue: Mm-hmm ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: now I am more in tune, I guess, with the present part of me. Um, so I don't feel like I need that in, in depth. Not that I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy the experience or, you know- Yeah ... get something from it.

Yeah. But I fi- now I think I'm able to, um, connect to it more agi- with more agility in my life. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: If that makes sense. Yeah. Whereas, like- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: I really needed that immersion then, 'cause it was so hard- Right ... to get there. 

Sue: Yeah. You needed that deep practice so that it- 

Dr. Sara Weber: Mm-hmm ... 

Sue: it could even come up in normal life and be exercised- Yes

in real time. Yeah, yeah. I can relate to that too. I, um, have not done a silent retreat in a while, but um, it does sound lovely to go back to. But maybe not as- Mm-hmm ... yeah, like, life-saving as it might have felt- 

Dr. Sara Weber: [00:19:00] Yeah ... 

Sue: um, back in 2022 when, uh, I was doing more of that. When you were having your hardest experiences, were there still parts of you that felt like you?

Could you still access- Mm ... some of that, finding things that- Yeah ... you enjoyed? 

Dr. Sara Weber: I think for me in particular, a part of what contributed to my burnout was that I think I had lost a, a high... I don't wanna say all, but a big percentage of access to what I did like. I actually don't think I knew what I really liked, what I really enjoyed.

I mean, I wa- had been and was very performance-oriented. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: And I would've told you then, "Yes, I like this and I like that." You know, it's... But I think, um, being able to navigate what I actually [00:20:00] liked and what I thought I should like or whatever, I mean, I, I did not- Mm-hmm ... really have that capacity at the time.

I mean, I knew I liked gardening, I guess. That was probably the one thing I've always known that I liked. 

Sue: When did some of that start to come back? What was it that came back, and how long did it take for you to sort of be like, "Oh, yeah, this is nutritive to me"? 

Dr. Sara Weber: I would say it has unfolded again in phases.

Um, like for example, just... So this, it was back in 2017 when I really realized I was burned out. And I guess, I mean, I liked meditation. I liked doing that. I liked gardening, so I, I, I liked yoga. So there, I was aware of some things I liked. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Um, but I think I still had a lot of internal tension around like even, should I trust things I like, or should I do things 'cause I'm supposed to, or 'cause I think I'm supposed to?

Like, that was a very strong na- narrative still in me. Um, [00:21:00] but a couple, about two years ago now, I decided to take a pottery class, and I would say in that time I was really more deeply explo- exploring like what do I even like to do? W- who am I? Yeah. Do I wanna be a doctor? All of these more deeper questions.

Yeah. And I took a pottery class, and immediately was... knew I had to keep go- going back. Oh. And what was really interesting is after about, mm, three or four months of, of doing pottery, I I had this kind of resurgent memory of what a creative child I was. 

Sue: Oh. 

Dr. Sara Weber: But I had really completely forgotten that. 

Sue: Huh. 

Dr. Sara Weber: I mean, I knew I tried to be creative in my work, uh, especially in like some of my academic and administrative work, but I r- I...

It was sort of this like whole part of me that I kind of had disconnected from. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Um, and was like, [00:22:00] it's like I, you know, realized I had a limb that I had forgotten. I mean, that's how it felt, like really core to me. Oh. That like, "Oh my gosh, I've, I had abandoned this." So that's why I say- Wow ... it really has happened over time, because- I think it took a lot of time to get there.

Sue: Yeah, no doubt. But how fascinating that, yeah, you were a creative young person who enjoyed that. I think this is not uncommon. I feel like all- 

Dr. Sara Weber: Mm-hmm ... 

Sue: kids have some connection to their creative energy. I feel like it's pretty universal. Um, but then by the time people are, like, 12 even, they'll describe that they're not, they're not good at art.

They don't do any art. And I'm like, "Wow. How, where does that go?" Um, so interesting that it was, uh, there all the time, but like a neglected limb. That's a great description. Uh, I'm glad you [00:23:00] rediscovered it. Are you still making pottery? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Mm-hmm. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah. I, I, uh, it's become, you know, just, like, a routine. People will be like, "How do you make time for that?"

I'm like, "I have to. Like, how do you make time for sleeping?" Like, it just feel, you know, for me now, it just feels like something I have to do. 

Sue: And what are you making? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Well, I recently made some mugs for a friend. She wanted some, like, smaller sized coffee mugs. But I'm gonna hopefully this summer make some, I wanna make some lanterns.

Sue: Do you do any hand building, or it's mostly on the wheel? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Mostly on the wheel. I have not, I have tried a little hand building, but the drying process and not cracking it. It sounds like you do a little pottery, or? 

Sue: A little bit. N- nothing, I, I do lots of little bits of things, and none of it- Yeah ... very serious.

Um, but ooh, I dream of having a kiln anyway. I'm, I, I- ... I, um, don't dabble with the wheel very much, but I will have to share, um, a little [00:24:00] tiny votive lantern that I, um- 

Dr. Sara Weber: Oh, 

Sue: yeah ... am working on. But yeah. Yeah, mostly hand building, though. I love it. I'm interested in what you would say to yourself back at the beginning of your story, knowing that somebody else might be in the same situation.

And I know you work with physicians who are in similar situations. Is there anything you wish, um, you could have said to yourself then, or wish somebody else had provided to you earlier in your process that would have been supportive? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah, so there, I saw this kid walking down the street the other day with a T-shirt that said something like, "Nothing worth having is, comes easily."

And I was, like, offended by it, actually. And, um, I was like, "Who gave their child that shirt?" But, and I under- I understand where the saying comes from, but I think I would have [00:25:00] told, I would have liked to have known that the opposite can be true, that you can actually Do things you like and it feels easier when you like them.

You know, like- Yeah ... I think, like, like it's just, like, so shocking that, um, you could actually find some work you like and that feels, not that it will never have hard things. Life inherently has challenge. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: But just, like, something always feeling hard, like, is not the way it has to be. And- Yeah ... because I think w- multiple times in my career, what's kept me stuck, you know, or maybe not making change as early as I could have, was this fear or belief that there's something wrong with choosing something you like because the thing you're doing you don't enjoy.

Like, I don't, it sounds- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: kind of silly to say out loud, but I don't think I'm the only one in medicine who feels this way. 

Sue: No, I don't, I don't think you're the only one who feels that way [00:26:00] at all. Um, and I don't know about you, but I feel like in pediatrics, there is a little bit more, uh, shame if you're- Mm-hmm

not enjoying what you're doing because most of us- Yes ... identify pretty strongly as loving kids. And what's- Right ... not great about kids? Right. And what's not great about helping them and helping families? It feels to me a little harder to admit that you don't like it or that you're not thriving in it, and that you're suffering.

Dr. Sara Weber: I totally 

Sue: agree. Maybe it's hard for everyone, but... 

Dr. Sara Weber: Well, I think it's hard in different ways, but I agree that I think in pediatrics, um... And I actually see this difference across, 'cause, you know, as a, we didn't talk about is, you know, now I lead wellbeing work and do research, and when I look across how different specialties have, uh, kind of approached this issue within their [00:27:00] national organizations and whatnot- 

Sue: Mm-hmm

Dr. Sara Weber: I think in peds, it's always still rooted very much in the child patient, not in a way that I find bad, and I think that children are a motivating and supportive factor for a lot of people in their career, and yet I do think we have a really hard time Thinking about ourselves. 

Sue: Yeah. 

Dr. Sara Weber: And in, and like you said, um, how could I be burned out or need to do something else when I'm taking care of X, Y, Z?

Like, there's just a little bit more- Yeah ... of a layer of altruistic altruism, though, in a way that's can be self-harming. 

Sue: Yeah, and to me feels almost like core identity that you're having to confront. I mean, I've built my whole career on something even bigger than altruism. It's just innate love of [00:28:00] these little beings, and love of the role that I've been really fortunate to play.

And then to have to look at the fact that it's crushing, um, for whatever combination of circumstances, um, is, is just, it's hard, I think. And it, I think it feels a little harder to me than it might be for my adult medicine colleagues who obviously value the work that they get to do and have also worked hard to get to do it and, and find it rewarding.

But they're not, like, innately in love with diabetic feet or whatever. You know, whereas, you know, we're often identifying very strongly with, um, being caregivers of kids, which is great. It is great work, and it still can get complicated and be profoundly difficult and harming [00:29:00] to us. The shame piece, I hope, is something that by talking more about it, by, um, people like you sharing your experience, um, other people can be like, "Yeah, it is, it is okay to love kids and feel pride in all this work that I've done, and also need to find a way to sustain myself so that I can keep doing that or not keep doing that."

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah. Something that took several years for me to get to was this idea of putting myself in the circle of compassion. Like, if you think about- Mm-hmm ... what are all the things I have compassion about, and I put them in this circle, but I'm like... It's like as, I think as pediatricians, we're like on the outside- Mm-hmm

and we're like, it's like we're extending it forward instead of stepping in the circle and having- Right ... compassion for ourselves, too. 

Sue: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a, a really human experience, too, to, [00:30:00] um, have a lot of, uh, a feeling for things outside ourselves and really having to cultivate the ability to apply some of that caring to our own selves.

And so cool when we do, right? I mean, a lot of, uh, a lot of good comes not only to us when we can do it, but to everyone around us. Um, so it's a good thing to practice. But yeah, it's kind of a revolutionary idea and certainly not something that, uh, was part of my medical education. I kinda hope it's more a part of medical education now.

Do you experience that because of the work that you do? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah, it seems to me like, you know, people in training right now have a fundamentally different perspective of a lot of things in medicine. And something that's really interesting actually is, um, and I think this has been shown a little bit in the literature, that they can, they can kind of both see the work as a calling and feel like it's okay [00:31:00] for it not to be the only thing in your life.

And you know what? Yeah. I think it's a fear, and I-- There was a study that I was a part of where we asked, like, program directors about, and, and residents about their perspectives on things. And I think people in a, in a little bit, um, of the more senior, you know, generation of pediatricians will have this fear that having boundaries or not wanting to work full-time means you're less committed to the work.

And I-I, it seems to me that the folks that are in training now don't see that as a dichotomy as much. 

Sue: Yeah. I wonder how that changed, if that is just a cultural, generational, um... but certainly I don't think changed because of medicine. I think- No, 

Dr. Sara Weber: no ... they brought that with them. Why, and that's the- 

Sue: Uh-huh

Dr. Sara Weber: that's the, the issue then now you have all these, you know, young folks getting into systems that have not adapted to that perspective- Yeah ... in that, right? [00:32:00] Um, so that'll be interesting to see what happens as they become more concentrated. But, you know, I think that, um, there's some comfort in the belief that if you're working all the time, it, um, serves a higher purpose.

And certainly folks who are a couple generations older than me also lived in a different world and perhaps had spouses at home taking care of children, or at least both parents not wor- You know, there, there are a lot of differences- Yeah ... also that maybe made a career like that more feasible in general- 

Sue: Mm-hmm.

Yeah ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: than it is now for people. 

Sue: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's big changes, uh, in, in those ways for sure that contribute to, uh, the need, the necessity to do it differently. And- Mm-hmm ... isn't it great that youth will lead us there if we haven't- Yeah. Right ... found our way there ourselves. They're gonna model it for [00:33:00] us, which I, I think is just awesome.

Dr. Sara Weber: Mm-hmm. 

Sue: I'm here to cheerlead them doing that for sure. Hey, we're gonna take a break and we'll be back for the rest of the episode.

We're back from our break. Thanks again, Dr. Weber, for being here. It's been, um, really great. I have, uh, a few more questions that I wanna ask you. I wonder if when you got to a place of recovery, I guess, is the word I'll use for lack of a better one, um, were there apologies that you felt like you had to go back and make to anyone?

Dr. Sara Weber: I can't think of any apologies, but I cer- there were certainly things I had to face. Yeah. You know? For myself. I don't know if regrets is the right word, but maybe griefs. You know, things I needed to grieve that happened or I missed out on or whatnot. 

Sue: Were [00:34:00] there parts of your old professional identity that you have had to let die out in order for you to be living in better balance?

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah. Good question. So I, I stopped doing hospital medicine. That was one of the f- I mean, it probably took me a year or two to really get there, but, um, I stopped doing that, so that was a definite change that I made. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: And I shifted. I was doing the, uh, kind of global health and community work, and transitioned into doing clinician wellbeing work.

Mm-hmm. So that, that was... Those are some sort of tangible shifts that I made. 

Sue: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Sara Weber: I think that the identification as, like, a really productive, efficient person, um, who just always says yes to everything, you know, I, I can, I... [00:35:00] Again, it's not totally gone, that desire to be seen that way, but- 

Sue: Hmm ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: I definitely have to let it go as a core motivator.

Sue: Yeah. Do you miss the hospitalist work, or what you're doing now is, is m- more satisfying it sounds like, and so maybe there is no wistfulness about the old, yeah. 

Dr. Sara Weber: No. I didn't miss it ever Which- ... is like, tells you, right? It just wasn't the right- Yeah ... area for me. 

Sue: No. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Luckily for me, I still get to be on a team with those people because of the work- Yeah

I do now is close enough, so I didn't have to let go of those relationships, which is- Yeah ... ideal, really. Um- Yeah ... 'cause I love those people. But now I do pediatric sedation and pediatric palliative care, and, um, w- yeah, I mean, I think if I had ever done a palliative care rotation as a medical student, my path might have been a little quicker.

[00:36:00] Um, although who knows? I may not have been ready for it then either. 

Sue: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 

Dr. Sara Weber: maybe. This is not very efficient or productive, 

Sue: right? So- Right. Uh-huh. It might not have aligned. 

Dr. Sara Weber: Right. I had to shed some of that kind of programming- 

Sue: Yeah ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: to realize, like, actually, I really like deeply connecting with patients and families, and that's what- 

Sue: Yeah 

Dr. Sara Weber: Feels good to me.

Yeah. Very- And again, it's like the right kind of hard. Not everyone would wanna do that. So back to that thing we talked about earlier where it's like- Mm-hmm ... well, something could feel easy for me, and that could be a good thing. It doesn't mean it's- 

Sue: Right ... 

Dr. Sara Weber: easy for someone else. 

Sue: Right. Yeah. Good alignment with your- 

Dr. Sara Weber: Mm-hmm

Sue: your gifts and- 

Dr. Sara Weber: Mm-hmm ... 

Sue: uh, and desires. Yeah. Yeah. That darn shirt on that young kid. 

Dr. Sara Weber: I know. Just gonna cross this out and 

Sue: write something 

Dr. Sara Weber: else. How about 

Sue: that? How 

Dr. Sara Weber: about that? Do what you love and see what happens. 

Sue: Uh, are you, um, still working quite full time, or was that [00:37:00] part of what you changed? 

Dr. Sara Weber: Well, I work part time, um, in my academic job, and I do, I have a coaching business, um, which you, you, you know, you mentioned earlier that I do a little bit- Mm-hmm

on the side, but, uh, not so much that I don't still get to enjoy some of the, the benefits of working part time. And that wa- that was something I actually did early on, and then I went back to full time, and then I went back to part time. 

Sue: Ah, I see. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. No, I get that totally. Yeah. You recovered and then overshot-

and then had to- 

Dr. Sara Weber: Yeah ... 

Sue: had to rein it in again. That makes perfect sense. Well, I have so appreciated you taking the time to speak in this format, and really, um, loved hearing more of the details of your story and am really proud of the work you're doing and proud that you were able to craft your career in a way [00:38:00] that, you know, was, sounds like really absolutely necessary, you know, critically necessary, uh, but also was done pretty skillfully and in a way that you're able to provide, uh, great care and service while you take care of yourself and your family too.

Dr. Sara Weber: Well, thanks, Sue, and I appreciate just your curiosity about how to, how to help people navigate a hard... I- it is a hard environment in which to practice medicine right now. I think- Mm-hmm ... uh, especially for pediatricians, there's a lot going on on the outside too that is, are new problems we haven't had to face.

Mm-hmm. Right? And so just making the space for folks to share a story that might resonate with somebody, right? I mean, there's nothing about my story that's special, but I do know and I remember moments he- of hearing someone else's story and thinking, "Oh my gosh, I'm not the only one," and how- Mm-hmm

important that was. And so, [00:39:00] you know, I appreciate that that's what you're trying to do for folks, so thanks. 

Sue: Yeah. Right back at ya. Uh, we have a story generously submitted by Sara, who is an ER nurse. She says, "Dear Sue, I've been an ER nurse for almost 25 years. I love my job. I used to love my job, but I just don't anymore.

I dread going in. It's becoming something different than what it used to be. My coworkers are different, and patients are different. It's not the same environment. Coworkers don't have a work together and go the distance attitude. Patients are not nice. Even though we know it can be their worst day, this is different than that.

I'm just feeling so burnt out and over it. It really upsets me because this has always been my dream job. I want to help people." Oof. I can relate to lots that's [00:40:00] in that, particularly the feeling of dread. Uh, when I was experiencing burnout, uh, I really dreaded the practice management part of business life, and then it just began to color my entire experience, and I would be physically anxious to go to work, which was not something I had been prone to, uh, at all before that.

Um, and I can sure relate, too, to the disillusionment around having a job that you have loved and adored and now feel like it's hard to love it and adore it. And, uh, for me, when I got to that point, I was trying to, you know, figure out what the solutions were. And, um, I certainly felt like a lot of the message was, uh, learn to, um, accept things as they [00:41:00] are, take things as they come, um, uh, don't worry about the things that are outside of your control.

And I found that maybe supportive in a moment, but what I really needed in the end was, uh, deeper mindfulness to understand and have some clear insights about what I really needed. And that was, uh, the beginning then of being able to, uh, change my circumstances and move forward. And I, I do appreciate you voicing your experience because I think that is a step toward making change, and I think it's hard to do.

I think it takes some bravery to do that. And, um, hopefully your journey will, um, be one of increased comfort and balance. And I hope you'll [00:42:00] stay in touch with me and, uh, let me know how it goes. Do you have a burnout story? I would love to feature it on the show. Share it with us for a chance to have it read on an upcoming episode.

You can email us, hello@stillpracticingpod.com or visit our website, stillpracticingpod.com. You can also check out sudaniels.md on TikTok and Instagram or Facebook to keep up with me and the pod. Check out our Human Content Podcast family on Instagram and TikTok @humancontentpods. Thanks to everyone who listened to the episode.

Please come back and listen again. Send us a message or leave a review on your favorite podcasting app or on YouTube and I'll give you a shout-out. Speaking of YouTube, check out our full episode videos on YouTube that will be posted every other week at Still Practicing Podcast. Thanks again for listening.

I'm your host, Sue Daniels. Our [00:43:00] executive producers are me, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman and Shahnti Brooke. Our associate producer is Sundus Hassan Nooli. Our editor and engineer is Andrew Sims, and our music is by Omer Ben-Zvi. To learn more about Still Practicing's program disclaimer and ethics policy, submission verification and licensing terms, and HIPAA release terms, you can go to stillpracticingpod.com and reach out to us at hello@stillpracticingpod.com with any questions, comments or smart remarks.

Still Practicing is a Human Content [00:44:00] production

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